Obama: Enemy of Humanity

[Darth Rotor]

No, pointing out that Bush lied to the public and betrayed their trust

That is not the phrase he used. Go back and look at the clip on youtube.

"He betrayed this country." (Also something about he played upon our fears, and much more, that for my money, would have been a far better criticism had it not been delivered like a moronic football fan complaining about a blown penalty call by a ref.)

DR

 

[oldhat]

That is not the phrase he used. Go back and look at the clip on youtube.

"He betrayed this country."

facepalm.jpg

It's a metonym. Look it up.

Pretty obtuse, even for a conservative on the warpath against Al Gore.

 

[Pardalis]

P.S. Two people can both be patriotic, and still disagree about something. It's something the right wing has missed, because they've confused patriotism with nationalism.

You clearly are not patriotic. You once equated your servicemen with terrorists, remember?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5024891&postcount=208
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5025723&postcount=210
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5026949&postcount=218
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5027041&postcount=224

 

[Peephole]

Are any and all objections to the war being so categorized?

Yes, prominent Republicans and conservatives said these things to opponents of America's wars and national security policies, as was extensively documented earlier in this thread.

Nope. No more than any opposition to health care reform is being so categorized.

The inability to see such double standards is rather common now, so don't feel too bad about it.

Which prominent Democrat or liberal has called opposition to health care reform "un-American", "unpatriotic", "giving comfort to the enemy", "treason, "rooting for defeat", etc... or something similar?

 

[Peephole]

That is not the phrase he used. Go back and look at the clip on youtube.

No, there's a big difference between accusing someone of betraying their country by lying to their countrymen, and accusing someone of secretly "rooting for the enemy."

 

[oldhat]

Which prominent Democrat or liberal has called opposition to health care reform "un-American", "unpatriotic", "giving comfort to the enemy", "treason, "rooting for defeat", etc... or something similar?

I don't know but I do know Michael Moore is fat.

 

[Upchurch]

Do we need to run Al Gore's video in which he screams and hollars about how "He betrayed this country!" at the top of his lungs.

Hmmm, betray one's country. Treason.

I am appalled at the incredibly narrow and partisan horsecrap I am seeing in this thread. For those of you who voted for President Obama, I suggest you listen to his many comments on how we must get this done together. It is a sentiment I quite agree with.

So much irony and bald faced hypocrisy in a single post, to complain about narrow and partisan horsecrap after presenting narrow and partisan horsecrap.

If you're not going to pay attention to what I'm saying, DR, and just want to run your mouth off, feel free. But spare us the holier-than-thou attitude, especially when you aren't going to pay attention.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes

No.

 

[Darth Rotor]

facepalm.jpg

It's a metonym. Look it up.

Pretty obtuse, even for a conservative on the warpath against Al Gore.

Who would that be? I am not convinced you are actually following this conversation.

 

[Darth Rotor]

So much irony and bald faced hypocrisy in a single post, to complain about narrow and partisan horsecrap after presenting narrow and partisan horsecrap.

If you're not going to pay attention to what I'm saying, DR, and just want to run your mouth off, feel free. But spare us the holier-than-thou attitude, especially when you aren't going to pay attention.

I am paying very close attention, and wish you would be more self aware than you have demonstrated.

Now, pay close attention to what charges of treason are, in actual usage, rather than in the overly pedantic world of JREF nitpicking.

Open the lens.

I am trying to understand how you don't grasp how someone who betrays his country isn't a traitor, a characterization, and a form of personal attack you profess to abhor in this very thread. That is what Gore screamed. (He screamed much else as well, and if you bother to read all that I wrote, you might grasp my criticism of Gore's delivery of a criticism.) The problem was that the taco sauce, "He betrayed this country" overshadowed the flavor of two very valid criticisms: deceptiveness and playing upon "our fears" (though in Al's case, the hypocrisy screams off the page, but never mind.) which were well founded criticism of Bush's path to war in Iraq. Worse, Al, rather than continue the role of statesman and leader descended into the role of demagogue and foaming at the mouth protester. This, from the guy who was a few votes away from being President, leaving the high ground in a freaking rant, in a snit, in a tizzy, in a tiff. I was quite frankly surprised at his choice to play his hand that way.

Pay very close attention to what I am typing now: the use of overstatement, hyperbole, and exaggeration is a standard tactic when attempting to demonize or discredit one's political opponent. To pretend that only one party/side/faction uses such a tactic, or to deliberately excuse or ignore that use by your preferred faction or side, is rather narrow and dishonest and partisan. The risk of using such tactics is that the obvious BS in the overstatements can be used to discredit the whole criticism.

The taint.

DR

 

[Peephole]

No.

Well, I guess you cede the argument.

 

[Upchurch]

I am paying very close attention, and wish you would be more self aware than you have just demonstrated.

Now, pay close attention to what charges of treason are, in actual usage, rather than in the overly pedantic world of JREF nitpicking.

Open the lens.

DR

Are you kidding me?

What was GreyICE referring to in the OP? What did Zig challenge? What did I and others present evidence of? What was my quote you dumped on specifically talking about?

If you had been paying attention at all, you'd know that my comment was not alone in the aether, but part of a string of conversation. You took it out of context, ad hoc'd extra meaning where none was meant nor specified, and pulled a tu quoque. (And a rather one sided tu quoque for someone complaining about partisanship.) What I said was true and completely disproves Zig's counter claim, which was what it was intended to do. I never claimed that Democrats didn't do it too.

I know you have a brain in your head, DR. I've seen you use it. If you don't like the blind partisanship you are seeing around here lately, why not model the behavior you would like to see instead of participating in the behavior you claim to be appalled by?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Are you kidding me?

What was GreyICE referring to in the OP? What did Zig challenge? What did I and others present evidence of? What was my quote you dumped on specifically talking about?

If you had been paying attention at all, you'd know that my comment was not alone in the aether, but part of a string of conversation. You took it out of context, ad hoc'd extra meaning where none was meant nor specified, and pulled a tu quoque. (And a rather one sided tu quoque for someone complaining about partisanship.) What I said was true and completely disproves Zig's counter claim, which was what it was intended to do. I never claimed that Democrats didn't do it too.

I know you have a brain in your head, DR. I've seen you use it. If you don't like the blind partisanship you are seeing around here lately, why not model the behavior you would like to see instead of participating in the behavior you claim to be appalled by?

Go back and read again, I ETA'd while you were posting.

If you call me a partisan, I will call you a liar.

Clear?

You have just played (probably by accident) "if you are not for me you are against me" with me, which is a good way to get flamed.

ETA: On the other hand, though I replied to your post, the sentiment was directed against the general dog pile at Zig. It wasn't just you. Just to be clear. And given the rampant choice of examples, I thought it might be instructive for the partisan players, to include our Belgian demagogue here, to open the lenses a bit.

With the tiresomely predictable knee jerk response.

DR

 

[Upchurch]

(the following was added after I started replying)

I am trying to understand how you don't grasp how someone who betrays his country isn't a traitor, a characterization, and a form of personal attack you profess to abhor in this very thread.

...which has nothing to do with what was being discussed.

That is what Gore screamed. (He screamed much else as well, and if you bother to read all that I wrote, you might grasp my criticism of Gore's delivery of a criticism.)

Yes, that's lovely. Gore is a bastard. Still not what I was talking about.

Pay very close attention to what I am typing now: the use of overstatement, hyperbole, and exaggeration is a standard tactic when attempting to demonize or discredit one's political opponent.

How can I ignore it? This is precisely what you've been doing in your last few posts.

To pretend that only one party/side/faction uses such a tactic, or to deliberately excuse or ignore that use by your preferred faction or side, is rather narrow and dishonest and partisan.

When you locate something I said that indicates that I was pretending anything of the sort, I will apologize for doing it.

Given your position on this, I take it that you will agree with me that in the early part of the decade sitting Republican officials did, despite Zig's claims to the contrary, call criticism of the President/the war/what-have-you unpatriotic and traitorous? This is, after all, the point I was making in that quote, the one you labeled "incredibly narrow and partisan horsecrap"?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Given your position on this, I take it that you will agree with me that in the early part of the decade sitting Republican officials did, despite Zig's claims to the contrary, call criticism of the President/the war/what-have-you unpatriotic and traitorous? This is, after all, the point I was making in that quote, the one you labeled "incredibly narrow and partisan horsecrap"?

As far as I am concerned, the rhetoric that flooded this country while we were at war was poisonous. Period. As a serving member, I did not appreciate the stabs in the back a few of our Congressional members engaged in, nor did I appreciate the outright lies of others in both the Congress and Executive Branch (There are just a few dead enders springs to mind as particularly despicable in its impact down stream). But that's OK, the Armed Forces went to war and the bulk of the population just went on with their lives, as did our political folks who delight in nothing more than giving each other a case of the red assl

An no, this is not a matter of Al Gore is a something or other. NO NO NO!!!

He is a career politician (and a decent public speaker) who shot his own (and in at least two points, valid) criticism in the foot by pulling the same crap GI complained about in the IP, and which the Greek Chorus of fools in this thread has dogpiled onto. Zig tries to toss a bit else into the thread and he gets dogpiled for no good reason.

That's my beef.

I used Gore's embarassing outburst as an example thanks to the partisanship already excreted all over the thread.

For the record, when that moron in the GOP went off about Freedom Fries and Freedom Toast, I wanted to punch that sorry sonofabitch in the mouth. When Hannity accused people of treason, it made me sick that while we were fighting, our political class had nothing better to do than play those silly freakin' games with one another. It's a disease of that profession, I guess.

That disease's symptoms crops up again in the OP nonsense. And y'all let it infect you.

I am done. Good day.

DR

 

[Upchurch]

If you call me a partisan, I will call you a liar.

Clear?

Oh, no? Then kindly answer the last paragraph in my last post.

You have just played (probably by accident) "if you are not for me you are against me" with me, which is a good way to get flamed.

And how did you reach that conclusion?

ETA: On the other hand, though I replied to you post, the sentiment was directed against the general dog pile at Zig. It wasn't just you. Just to be clear.

Let's be just a little more clear. Zig was being dog piled because he was objectively, factually wrong. This was no more a partisan dog pile than it was when American explained to us, with great confidence, how Elton John totally copied REO Speedwagon.

People who stick their foot in their mouths up to the knee and refuse to acknowledge it (and sometimes even after they do) get slammed on this board. It's the whole "your free to have your own opinions, but not your own facts" thing.

 

[Darth Rotor]

No, there's a big difference between accusing someone of betraying their country by lying to their countrymen, and accusing someone of secretly "rooting for the enemy."

What is the difference between spin and a lie? You just spun.

Dizzy yet?

 

[GreyICE]

You call it partisanship. I do not. To draw a parallel to another conflict that occasionally floods this forum, I view Israel as an unsavory regime that is far to devoted to jingoistic, nationalistic policies in many ways. I view the Palestinian government as a psychotic mixture of corrupt, ineffective, and downright terroristic people, many of whom are insane.

I have no problem with reasoned disagreement with me. I find it interesting, engaging, and frequently far more valuable than mindless agreement. What I am hilighting is a trend in the rhetoric of one side that can, broadly speaking, be labeled insane.

Yes, you could argue that there was similar rhetoric from the left. After Bush started a disasterous war over weapons that didn't exist, authorized spying on American citizens, used the biggest disaster in the last few decades to pass a 1200 page act with multiple unconstitutional powers that impinged upon our freedom (not an opinion - SCOTUS is the one who ruled them that), and generally gave the best impression of a jackass he could.

So this inspired some over the top and inexcuseable rhetoric.

And so far Obama has, um... tried to pass a health care bill? Bush passed one of those, and I remember people saying it was basically a handout to big pharma, but I failed to hear anyone suggesting he was creating a totalitarian state. Maybe it was his command the government be more open? I agree, that's basically socialist, if we ignore the entire concept of socialism.

Has it occured to you that I'm trying to outline that one wing of the country has gone cookoo for cocoa puffs? And that I don't find this trend particularly heartening? And that the rational people who should be pulling in the nutcases are giving them free license?

Agree with me, disagree with me, I'll consider, evaluate, and criticize your thinking if it's rational.

But it's not partisan to say that a shovel is a shovel, a fork is a fork, and a nut is a nut.

 

[Ziggurat]

Has it occured to you that I'm trying to outline that one wing of the country has gone cookoo for cocoa puffs?

Only one wing?

 

[GreyICE]

Only one wing?

So saying that leaving people uninsured is letting them die, and citing a study that shows lack of insurance... causes... death. Poor Alan Grayson.

But hell, you posted the video. Why should I do anything other than encourage people to watch it... and then ask if someone in this forum is reaching?