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Obama commutes Chelsea Manning sentence.

ponderingturtle said:
Yep the weakening of public confidence when they learn about government overreach and illegal actions is the reason so much is kept secret. That is really why those in Abugraib got punished, they were doing what they were supposed to but they let pictures get out so they needed to be scape goated. Public reaction demanded it. THat is why the CIA was right to destroy their photographs of their torture methods, if they got out it would mandate that the people who violated the law be punished.

Government can only keep going when under a proper degree of secrecy and having the public unable to hold them accountable. Violating peoples constitutional rights is only a problem when the public finds out about it.
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Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm not aware that the treatment of the Abugraib prisoners were exposed as a result of the leaks. I'm also not aware non-US citizens have constitutional rights. They are certainly subject to the Geneva accords regarding prisoners of war.

While the treatment of Abugraib prisioners was obviously wrong, that alone does not constitute the support of the unauthorized release of National Security Secrets. The treatment of the Abugraib prisoners was not US policy, but a rogue action by some members of the US Military. That in no way justifies the support of leaks of issues involving National Security. Only a supporter of a stupid SJW's would advocate such nonsense.
 
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I wonder if the May date was specifically to make sure that it happened under Trump's watch and to give him some time to try and fight it; basically bait him into a legal fight he can't win.

Just idle speculation on my part.
 
Reheat said:
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm not aware that the treatment of the Abugraib prisoners were exposed as a result of the leaks. I'm also not aware non-US citizens have constitutional rights. They are certainly subject to the Geneva accords regarding prisoners of war.

While the treatment of Abugraib prisioners was obviously wrong, that alone does not constitute the support of the unauthorized release of National Security Secrets. The treatment of the Abugraib prisoners was not US policy, but a rogue action by some members of the US Military. That in no way justifies the support of leaks of issues involving National Security. Only a supporter of a stupid SJW's would advocate such nonsense.
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They were following their orders from the private military contractors doing the real torture As per basic policy in the war in Iraq. It was hardly some isolated incident other than it was the one the pictures got out for. The other torture programs managed potentially unsetting to the public documentation like those photographs by properly destorying them. Otherwise the public would demand people be prosecuted for the torture programs of that time.
 
Reheat said:
He should have been executed then we wouldn't have had to have this discussion about pardoning him...
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She was clearly mentally ill, clearly expressed remorse, we will see how they talk about their actions after they are out... we don't execute mentally ill people who make mistakes, we can use them to help others prevent mistakes, and not executing them is good propaganda to show we are morally superior, to be perfectly honest.

I bet you're proud of the death of Eddie Slovik too.
 
theprestige said:
Opinions vary.
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A person tells me that they feel like a female and asks me to call them by female pronouns because it makes them feel better, and the scientific consensus is that this is a real condition with real biological differences in the brain. So, because it literally means nothing to me either way, I do the polite thing. People who get into philosophical arguments about language and definitions worry too much about the fabric of society being something sacred, it's an impulse of traditionalism that I believe is neurotic and counterproductive. Not quite pathological just overcompensating for other things unrelated to whether or not a dude wants to wear a dress in his yearbook photo.
 
Ryokan said:
Dude. If there's anyone venting in this thread, it's you. Seriously, please try to calm your nerves. That kind of ranting can't be healthy for you.
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I'm not ranting, I'm making fun, granted I do sound like a crazy person because I'm so drunk half the time. I tend to stay off the forum and do more constructive things with my life until I'm truly drunk and on the forum and facebooking old girlfriends alternatively. I read that and I just wonder why I keep accepting all of these gifts of whiskey, should tell people I am off that stuff, can't control myself on it. Cheers
 
Joey McGee said:
She was clearly mentally ill, clearly expressed remorse, we will see how they talk about their actions after they are out... we don't execute mentally ill people who make mistakes, we can use them to help others prevent mistakes, and not executing them is good propaganda to show we are morally superior, to be perfectly honest.
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Not withstanding your opinion, show me evidence that he/she/it was not mentally competent to stand trial.
 
ponderingturtle said:
They were following their orders from the private military contractors doing the real torture As per basic policy in the war in Iraq. It was hardly some isolated incident other than it was the one the pictures got out for. The other torture programs managed potentially unsetting to the public documentation like those photographs by properly destorying them. Otherwise the public would demand people be prosecuted for the torture programs of that time.
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They told us beforehand what they were going to do, the same way Hitler was perfectly clear in Mein Kampf.

I watched Cheney frankly state the US was going to venture into the "dark side" on national television and Bush claim you were either with us or against us. The dinosaur media stenographers and paid military-industrial-complex spokesmen were paraded in front of us showing how all the smart people approved. Colin Powell showed the UN some ridiculous cartoon drawings and it cost him a presidential candidacy, that's how awful it was in retrospect. We tortured people to say what we wanted and then drew cartoons of it. That was our intelligence.

But notice how tongue-in-cheek we have to keep it with "enhanced interrogation" Orwellian language policing. Hide all the evidence. Deny all the innocents killed.

If pictures get out, punish a private. But make sure the people who gave the orders vacation on island paradises.

So you need the whistleblowers. You have to get the emails out, the videos, etc. Manning is a whistleblower. Courageous.
 
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Reheat said:
That is a matter of opinion. I disagree.
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That the death penalty is a weak deterrent when it comes to murder is, I think, quite widely accepted.

But whether it's a deterrent for something like treason or whatever Manning's charge was may be a different matter.

Personally, I don't think she deserved to die for what she did, but my opinion is not particularly well-informed.
 
Reheat said:
Not withstanding your opinion, show me evidence that he/she/it was not mentally competent to stand trial.
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There is a misunderstanding going on here. Being mentally ill is different from being unfit to stand trial. Being unfit to stand trial gets you declared innocent. You can still be guilty as hell and deserving punishment and have the fact that you were mentally ill figure into your sentencing. Sometimes these are the same thing and sometimes they aren't, but here, they are the same for this poor, sad, weak little man. Obama will tell you that it's about the fact that other leakers got less and the message has been sent and Manning accepted responsibility for what happened as a result. The treatment he got during that 7 years doesn't make anyone feel good about trying that, Obama has another point there. What Obama would never tell anyone is that this kid is clearly a sad little **** and no one wants to see the poor **** stay in there another 8 whole years with Trump in office so now is the time.
 
Manning knew at the time and said so that they could be put away for the rest of their life for this, which for me would be worse than the noose. She even said she knew she might be executed. That was no deterrent. The only *********** question is will keeping her in there longer prevent more leaks? It's a stupid *********** question, no, she said perfectly clear that she was prepared to go there forever and even force her family to watch her die, and very well probably would. So it's a very stupid debate. Same argument as most crime arguments, focus on good schooling that develops moral fibre and reasoning and resources for people who are going off the rails.

Yeah pretty damned stupid.
 
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shuize said:
Wait, does this mean taxpayers won't be on the hook for his sex change operation?
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That was one of my first thoughts. What a joke. Commit treason, get free sex reassignment surgery in prison, then be set free. He hasn't had it yet so he is still a he, as he was when he committed these acts.

Manning ended a hunger strike begun last week after receiving assurances that the government would provide the surgery, said Chase Strangio, her lawyer and an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union.

.....

Manning sued for access to hormone treatment, and the Army agreed to provide it last year.


In July, the Pentagon repealed its ban on allowing transgender troops to serve. It also announced that it would begin medical treatment for transgender troops, including reassignment surgery.
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Say WHAT? What the bloody hell!!!??? It = the taxpayers. That's insanity. Join the military then go for a sex change? Dude.... did I wake up on the wrong planet 14 months or so ago?

Joey McGee
...I'm so drunk half the time.
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Deleted - too easy ;)
 
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