Obama and Jesus

[Ausmerican]

I hate it when someone says, "Oh, Obama did this or didn't do that...", and an astute observer, quite correctly, points out that either no one else has either, or that George Bush or Ronald Reagan did likewise, or some such foolishness, just to justify what Obama has or has not done. This never satisfies his critics, so there is no point in doing so. Enough already!! Obama is our president now, he does what he does, period.

I beleive in this case it was totally valid. I think the OP more or less implied that Obama was the first President not to do this and that this is what cast doubts on his christianity. Of course we will know this for sure once the OP comes back to defend his point.
BaC?
BaC?

 

[Ausmerican]

So...you are one of those RACERS, eh?

If you are accusing him of being one of those RacERS does that make you one of those RacISTS?

 

[mhaze]

If you are accusing him of being one of those RacERS does that make you one of those RacISTS?

Not at all. No more than commenting that someone saw everything through the lens of a beer glass would mean that one was a drinker.

 

[respect]

2) One does not have to be an Obamaphile to accept President Obama's Christianity. The evidence in favor of it is overwhelming. Do you doubt his Christianity? If so, what is he?

I am perplexed that the same people that criticize Obama for going to a crappy church for years also criticize him for being a secret Muslim.

 

[Ausmerican]

I am perplexed that the same people that criticize Obama for going to a crappy church for years also criticize him for being a secret Muslim.

Also you would think that if he is part black, part white, part Hawaii, part Kansas, part Asia, part Muslim, part Christian, part Atheist then he should pretty much have America covered no?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Sure....here's one transcript.

GG: What are you doing when you feel the most centered, the most aligned spiritually?

OBAMA: I think I already described it. It's when I'm being true to myself. And that can happen in me making a speech.....

Briefly, this transcript does have some insight into the subject, and various people would take differing things away from it. I'd comment that it's not a Christianity that is described by Obama as Christianity, but a sort of post modern feel good spirituality-in-everything-I-see-and-do. And you can tell, he's playing politician....

For example, he takes whatever things he thinks highly of, and ascribes spirituality to them. One really weird one is "the civil rights movement".


So...you are one of those RACERS, eh?

I'm glad I'm not one of them.

But tell us more. How often do these feelings come over you? Are they controllable most of the time?

Your transcript does not say what you claim it does. Nowhere in that transcript, as quoted by you, does Obama claim that he "channels god". He just says he's most comfortable, most aligned, most at inner peace when giving a speech.

That's like me claiming that when I'm in the zone working on my car that somehow I'm claiming I'm channeling god when I'm working on my car. Not at all the same claim.


That aside, I'm not usually one to jump the gun and call something racist for the hell of it. There's all kinds of reasons to believe the push against Obama's citizenship is based in no small part on racism - mostly the fact that birthers tend to focus on the Kenyan father, but not the American mother, or that the rules are changed when it comes to Obama's parents, or that now the birthers are moving on to Obama's transcripts and the claim that affirmative action is what got Obama into Harvard (and got him his grades, or some such bull). If you can't see how that's softcore racism, especially the last one, then you need to pull that mote from your eye.

 

[Ladewig]

Sure....here's one transcript.

GG: What are you doing when you feel the most centered, the most aligned spiritually?

OBAMA: I think I already described it. It's when I'm being true to myself. And that can happen in me making a speech.....

Briefly, this transcript does have some insight into the subject, and various people would take differing things away from it. I'd comment that it's not a Christianity that is described by Obama as Christianity, but a sort of post modern feel good spirituality-in-everything-I-see-and-do. And you can tell, he's playing politician....

Really? You read that and concluded that President Obama believes that he is channeling God when he gives speeches?

 

[Cactus Wren]

Your transcript does not say what you claim it does. Nowhere in that transcript, as quoted by you, does Obama claim that he "channels god". He just says he's most comfortable, most aligned, most at inner peace when giving a speech.

What then-Senator Obama actually said, which mhaze carefully cut short, was that that's an example of a time he might feel that way.

I think I already described it. It’s when I’m being true to myself. And that can happen in me making a speech or it can happen in me playing with my kids, or it can happen in a small interaction with a security guard in a building when I’m recognizing them and exchanging a good word.

Are we to take it that mhaze thinks Obama claims divine inspiration for a game of tiddlywinks with his daughters?

 

[Ausmerican]

What then-Senator Obama actually said, which mhaze carefully cut short, was that that's an example of a time he might feel that way.



Are we to take it that mhaze thinks Obama claims divine inspiration for a game of tiddlywinks with his daughters?

Wow, nicely misrepresented mhaze! You truly ARE a credit to your partisan hackery club.

 

[Nova Land]

[Obama] is on record as saying he channels God in his public speeches...

I think you are confusing President Obama with the previous occupant of the White House.

[incomprehensible]

Before we look at mhaze's claim that Obama is on record as saying he channels God, let's look at Ausmerican's claim that Bush is on record as saying that.


Here is a good example of George W. Bush claiming to receive instructions directly from God:

God told me to invade Iraq, Bush tells Palestinian ministers

President George W. Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State...

In Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs... Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.

Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ." And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

Here is another example of George W. Bush claiming to have direct knowledge of God's plans and desires:

Bush said to James Robinson: 'I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.'

And here is a third example of George W. Bush channelling God:

In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse who are prophesied to come out of the north and destroy Israel unless stopped. The Book of Revelation took up the Old Testament prophesy:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."​

Bush believed the time had now come for that battle, telling Chirac:

"This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins".​

In my next post I'll provide some quotes from Barack Obama on the subject of receiving marching orders from God.

 

[Nova Land]

[Obama] is on record as saying he channels God in his public speeches...

President Obama said that? Can I get a citation?

Sure....here's one transcript...

I notice that the source of the transcript is not mentioned and no link is provided. The quoted passage is from a 2004 interview with Barack Obama conducted by Chicago Sun-Times columnist Cathleen Falsani. Here's a link, for anyone who'd like to read the whole thing.

[NOTE: I see Cactus Wren has already provided the link.]

It's a fascinating interview, well worth reading. And in it Barack Obama does indeed speak in several places about whether he believes he receives marching orders from God. Unfortunately the passage selectively quoted by mhaze is not one of those places:

FALSANI: Where do you find spiritual inspiration? Music, nature, literature, people, a conduit you plug into?

OBAMA: There are so many.

Nothing is more powerful than the black church experience. A good choir and a good sermon in the black church, it’s pretty hard not to be move and be transported.

I can be transported by watching a good performance of Hamlet, or reading Toni Morrison’s Song of Solomon, or listening to Miles Davis.

FALSANI: Is there something that you go back to as a touchstone, a book, a particular piece of music, a place …

OBAMA: As I said before, in my own sort of mental library, the Civil Rights movement has a powerful hold on me. It’s a point in time where I think heaven and earth meet. Because it’s a moment in which a collective faith transforms everything. So when I read Gandhi or I read King or I read certain passages of Abraham Lincoln and I think about those times where people’s values are tested, I think those inspire me.

FALSANI: What are you doing when you feel the most centered, the most aligned spiritually?

OBAMA: I think I already described it. It’s when I’m being true to myself. And that can happen in me making a speech or it can happen in me playing with my kids, or it can happen in a small interaction with a security guard in a building when I’m recognizing them and exchanging a good word.

Without the selective editing, it's pretty clear this part of the interview is not about whether Obama believes he receives marching orders directly from God. In my next post, I'll quote the parts of the interview where Obama does address that question.

 

[Nova Land]

[Obama] is on record as saying he channels God in his public speeches... here's one transcript.

No. Actually Obama is on record as saying he does not channel God in his public speeches. Here are some examples from the very interview mhaze claimed to be quoting, in which Obama repeatedly indicates he does not get marching orders directly from God. For instance, this passage in which he talks about the value of doubt and uncertainty:

FALSANI: So you got yourself born again?

OBAMA: Yeah, although I don’t, I retain from my childhood and my experiences growing up a suspicion of dogma. And I’m not somebody who is always comfortable with language that implies I’ve got a monopoly on the truth, or that my faith is automatically transferable to others.

I’m a big believer in tolerance. I think that religion at it’s best comes with a big dose of doubt. I’m suspicious of too much certainty in the pursuit of understanding just because I think people are limited in their understanding.

I think that, particularly as somebody who’s now in the public realm and is a student of what brings people together and what drives them apart, there’s an enormous amount of damage done around the world in the name of religion and certainty...

Another example of Obama not claiming to get marching orders from God:

FALSANI: [Your Republican opponent] said talking about your faith is frought with peril for a public figure.

OBAMA: Which is why you generally will not see me spending a lot of time talking about it on the stump.

Alongside my own deep personal faith, I am a follower, as well, of our civic religion. I am a big believer in the separation of church and state. I am a big believer in our constitutional structure... I am a great admirer of our founding charter, and its resolve to prevent theocracies from forming, and its resolve to prevent disruptive strains of fundamentalism from taking root in this country.

As I said before... I’m very suspicious of religious certainty expressing itself in politics.

Now, that’s different from a belief that values have to inform our public policy. I think it’s perfectly consistent to say that I want my government to be operating for all faiths and all peoples, including atheists and agnostics, while also insisting that there are values that inform my politics that are appropriate to talk about.

A standard line in my stump speech during this campaign is that my politics are informed by a belief that we’re all connected...

Here's another example from the interview of Obama not claiming to get marching orders from God (and strongly criticizing those who do make such claims):

FALSANI: Do you think it’s wrong for people to want to know about a civic leader’s spirituality?

OBAMA: I don’t think it’s wrong. I think that political leaders are subject to all sorts of vetting by the public, and this can be a component of that.

I think that I am disturbed by, let me put it this way: I think there is an enormous danger on the part of public figures to rationalize or justify their actions by claiming God’s mandate.

Here's one final passage from the interview which relates to this topic, and which seems especially helpful in understanding the difference between George Bush and Barack Obama on this matter. Bush says that a personal God speaks to him and tells him what to do. Obama says that God doesn't speak directly to him -- but that his belief in something larger than himself inspires and gives him strength to try to do what's right:

Obama: ... [T]he most powerful political moments for me come when I feel like my actions are aligned with a certain truth. I can feel it. When I’m talking to a group and I’m saying something truthful, I can feel a power that comes out of those statements that is different than when I’m just being glib or clever.

FALSANI: What’s that power? Is it the holy spirit? God?

OBAMA: Well, I think it’s the power of the recognition of God, or the recognition of a larger truth that is being shared between me and an audience.

George W. Bush said clearly and repeatedly that God was talking to him and that the policies he was carrying out were things God had told him to do. So far there doesn't seem to be any example of a comparable statement from Barack Obama.

 

[leftysergeant]

For example, he takes whatever things he thinks highly of, and ascribes spirituality to them. One really weird one is "the civil rights movement".

Why on earth would a rational person find that wierd?

Perhaps you simply do not understand the concept of spirituality, or some of the related phenomena, like martyrdom, courage, charity, jihad, justice and faith.

 

[mhaze]

Before we look at mhaze's claim that Obama is on record as saying he channels God, let's look at Ausmerican's claim that Bush is on record as saying that.


Here is a good example of George W. Bush claiming to receive instructions directly from God:

.....my next post I'll provide some quotes from Barack Obama on the subject of receiving marching orders from God.

Interesting indeed. So all our presidents are either directly in line with The One or think they are The One.

Wow.

 

[leftysergeant]

No.

 

[Ausmerican]

Interesting indeed. So all our presidents are either directly in line with The One or think they are The One.

Wow.

I guess the quoted part is the sum total that you read?

 

[MattusMaximus]

I just want to point out that President Obama did something that even Jesus couldn't...

... he got Osama bin Laden

 

[I Am The Scum]

I really like the way this thread has developed. We begin with criticism of Obama not being Christian enough. Then after it's pointed out how absurd the claim is, Mhaze comes in saying that the criticism is valid because Obama is too Christian.

You, sir, deserve a gold medal in mental gymnastics.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Interesting indeed. So all our presidents are either directly in line with The One or think they are The One.

Wow.

So liberals either argue using False Dichotomy arguments, or they're a bunch of dumb hippos.

 

[leftysergeant]

I have been trying to follow mhaze's logic on this topic. Anybody know a good chiropractor?

It just seems to me that Obama meets every religious test he needs to meet. He stands foursquare with God because he believes and he does what he can for his felllow man, to the best of his understanding and ability.

He stands foursquare with the constitution in that he does not use his personal belief system as a standard for legislation, nor coerce belief or semlance of belief in line with his beliefs.

What do the wing nuts expect of him?