Nutritional Suppliments question

This "Amway Watch" web net is intriguing. I'll post an assessment of it in a new thread after I have time to look it over.

Note: upper right hand corner you can click on the video to stop the ad that runs automatically every time you open the page.
 
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skeptigirl said:
I haven't had time to look at the specifics here but I have a general comment. I have seen a repeating pattern of these for profit products. At the first inkling of a benefit producers begin marketing the product as clinically tested/clinically proven or something to that effect.

The studies used to support the claims can be like this one where an effect is noted but no follow up testing is done to see if the effect means anything.

Listerine and Lysol kill germs. That's debatable but even if true, so what? They don't have any effect on infections.

The second common tactic is to do (or more likely use the result of someone else's work of) a very small pilot study and claim that result is meaningful. Pilot studies are frequently done to support more investment in researching an hypothesis.

The oat bran craze started this way. The results of a small study were published suggesting oat bran may lower cholesterol. Marketers had a field day with the study's results that continues to this day.
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A point that I made either in this thread or the other Amway thread is that one effect the supplement industry has had is to give people a twisted impression of what it means to have evidence. Because they present this incomplete and inadequate information as though it represents sufficient information to recommend a product, people think that this is what is meant by 'evidence'. So when you point out that this does not represent evidence in the sense of evidence-based medicine where one wants to make recommendations that have a good chance of being true, then it is you that is held up as unreasonable and biased.

Linda
 
casebro said:
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Seems to me that the FDA says supplements can't be sold to treat medical conditions. IE, Statins are sold as a preventive, yet need a Rx.....
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It's not whether or not you need a prescription. The issue is, if you make a medical claim on a label or in an ad, you have to meet certain FDA requirements.

Advertisers get around it by implying medical claims rather than clearly stating them. "Apply it to the forehead if you have a headache," doesn't really say the product treats a headache.

Also, if the medical claims are general enough, they don't meet the FDA definition of a 'medical' claim.

Advertisers always push the envelope but did so to an even greater extent in the non-enforcement era of Bush. The FDA has begun enforcing the rules again and have cited Cheerios for false medical claims already. Of course over the last 8 years, that means a wrist slap and now even more producers have adopted the attitude that you can, 'make the claim until we're stopped because the message sticks and there are no consequences for the false claim'. But maybe a little news focus you are making false claims with your product will have a negative marketing effect. We'll see.
 
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icerat said:
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There's an additional problem in the supplements industry in that while specific formulations can patented, it's generally very easy to tweak some things and copy it. One result is that even if you do clinical studies then you won't necessarily want them published as then they can be copied and you lose competitive advantage. Throw in the whole "disease/medicine" thing and it's a conundrum for any commerical enterprise.

So folk who want to see peer-reviewed, published, double blind placebo studies, which includes myself, we're pretty much out of luck. Even when they are published they'll be of the type "this changed this" in some clinical sense, but without leading through to a "real world" conclusion. There's quality clinical studies that show for example that Double X, Amway's "premium" supplement, significantly reduces DNA fragmentation. If you know the field this has all sorts of interesting ramifications.....
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This is a myth encouraged by the supplement industry to excuse the lack of clinical trials for their products. The truth is lots of research is funded outside the commercial arena.
 
jon said:
... Have any supplements been withdrawn when research showed them to be ineffective for what they are sold for..?...
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Individual products have been withdrawn because they were dangerous. The FDA does not regulate food supplements against uselessness.

An example in a prescription drug test is the TB Tine test. It is an ineffective screening tool for TB because it results in too many false negative results. But the FDA will not withdraw it from the market unless someone proves harm. And even though you could be harmed if your TB test missed an existing infection, the onset of disease is usually remote enough from the missed opportunity to detect it, that such a product complaint is unlikely to be brought to the attention of the FDA. So the bad product stays on the market.
 
fls said:
... lived in Northern Canada. Without roads, food had to be flown in on a sporadic basis, making stuff like fresh produce almost impossible to obtain.

... For example, even taking my investment in a bread machine into account, it is much cheaper and easier for me to make my own bread than to depend upon going to the store for a fresh supply. ...

...I still maintained regular physical activity with 80+ hour work weeks ...but the majority of people in the US do have the access and the resources to eat a balanced diet and maintain regular physical activity.

Linda
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"I can wash out 44 pairs of socks and have 'em hangin out on the line
I can starch & iron 2 dozens shirts 'fore you can count from 1 to 9
I can scoop up a great big dipper full of lard from the drippins can
Throw it in the skillet, go out & do my shopping, be back before it melts in the pan
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again

I can rub & scrub this old house til it's shinin like a dime
Feed the baby, grease the car, & powder my face at the same time
Get all dressed up, go out and swing til 4 a.m. and then
Lay down at 5, jump up at 6, and start all over again
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again

If you come to me sickly you know I'm gonna make you well
If you come to me all hexed up you know I'm gonna break the spell
If you come to me hungry you know I'm gonna fill you full of grits
If it's lovin you're likin, I'll kiss you and give you the shiverin' fits
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again

I can stretch! a green black dollar bill from here to kindom come!
I can play the numbers pay the bills and still end up with some!
I got a twenty-dollar gold piece says there ain't nothing I can't do
I can make a dress out of a feed bag and I can make a man out of you
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, and that's all. "

Sorry, couldn't help myself. ;)
 
Perpetual Student said:
It doesn't matter how many studies like this (LINK, or THIS) are made. The anti-supplement mentality within the medical profession, which is reflected in these threads, will not change.
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You are confusing the pro-science based medicine mentality reflected in these threads with an "anti-supplement mentality."

Do you not care if claims about what products do are based on evidence? Or do you hold the belief someone is suppressing the evidence? Because there is an awful Big Pharma out there making billions off those supplements. One has to wonder why, with all those profits, they wouldn't fight back?
 
skeptigirl said:
"I can wash out 44 pairs of socks and have 'em hangin out on the line
I can starch & iron 2 dozens shirts 'fore you can count from 1 to 9
I can scoop up a great big dipper full of lard from the drippins can
Throw it in the skillet, go out & do my shopping, be back before it melts in the pan
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again

I can rub & scrub this old house til it's shinin like a dime
Feed the baby, grease the car, & powder my face at the same time
Get all dressed up, go out and swing til 4 a.m. and then
Lay down at 5, jump up at 6, and start all over again
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again

If you come to me sickly you know I'm gonna make you well
If you come to me all hexed up you know I'm gonna break the spell
If you come to me hungry you know I'm gonna fill you full of grits
If it's lovin you're likin, I'll kiss you and give you the shiverin' fits
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again

I can stretch! a green black dollar bill from here to kindom come!
I can play the numbers pay the bills and still end up with some!
I got a twenty-dollar gold piece says there ain't nothing I can't do
I can make a dress out of a feed bag and I can make a man out of you
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, I'll say it again
'Cause I'm a woman! W-O-M-A-N, and that's all. "

Sorry, couldn't help myself. ;)
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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly." - Robert Heinlein

Linda
 
skeptigirl said:
You are confusing the pro-science based medicine mentality reflected in these threads with an "anti-supplement mentality."
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No, it is you who are confusing an anti-supplement mentality with a pretense of "pro-science based medicine." Many non-scientific practices within medicine continue to this day. It appears to be only when something is out of the reach of the medical field (like supplements) that science is invoked.
 
Perpetual Student said:
No, it is you who are confusing an anti-supplement mentality with a pretense of "pro-science based medicine." Many non-scientific practices within medicine continue to this day. It appears to be only when something is out of the reach of the medical field (like supplements) that science is invoked.
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How are supplements out of the reach of the medical field? The links you have provided for research results as to the various benefits of supplements in specific populations have been performed by people working within the medical field.

Linda
 
A big problem with "supplements" is not merely the issue of vitamins and diet. It is the fact that so many supplements are not nutritious and serve no healthful purpose. Very few herbs are known to be effective for anything, they are sold as "supplements" because purveyors do not have to demonstrate safety and efficacy. In fact, scientists can have good reasons to doubt safety, yet it takes the FDA years to gather sufficient data to ban those products.

You can read about that, and more, in Dan Hurley's "Natural Causes" (Broadway, 2006). The chapter on ephedra is especially educational. Although it was known to be dangerous, it took the FDA 10 years to get it off the market. The manufacturers were making so much money from it that they gladly settled claims for disability and death.
 
JJM said:
A big problem with "supplements" is not merely the issue of vitamins and diet. It is the fact that so many supplements are not nutritious and serve no healthful purpose. Very few herbs are known to be effective for anything, they are sold as "supplements" because purveyors do not have to demonstrate safety and efficacy. In fact, scientists can have good reasons to doubt safety, yet it takes the FDA years to gather sufficient data to ban those products.

You can read about that, and more, in Dan Hurley's "Natural Causes" (Broadway, 2006). The chapter on ephedra is especially educational. Although it was known to be dangerous, it took the FDA 10 years to get it off the market. The manufacturers were making so much money from it that they gladly settled claims for disability and death.
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Unfortunately the term "supplements" is so broad that it includes practically anything that is ingested that is not a food or prescription medication and is intended to have some positive effect on health and/or well being, whether such effect has been scientifically established or not. So useless stuff like mega vitamin C doses, harmful stuff like ephedra are bundled together with potentially helpful stuff like fish oil or Vitamin D and B12 for the elderly. The generally negative bias about supplements by the medical community does not help.
 
Perpetual Student said:
Unfortunately the term "supplements" is so broad that it includes practically anything that is ingested ... with potentially helpful stuff like fish oil or Vitamin D and B12 for the elderly.
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You are beginning to see the light. It is unfortunate that 99% of Big Suppla is giving the rest a bad name.
 
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jon said:
The medical community already does recommend supplements in some cases - for example folic acid when pregnant/trying to become so, the NICE guidlines re fish oil following a heart attack, etc. Clearly, the medical community can be persuaded to recommend supplements - there is the capacity for change...
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Funny you should mention those two specifically. I'm on both, as recommended by my GP, but then when I went over to a cardiologist, I reckoned he'd say something like, "Oh, forget that crap! Here, take these Wonder Pills." Well, he gave me the wonder pills, about five of 'em a day, but he also told me to stay on the plain old Cartia(aspirin), Centrum for its folic acid content, and naturally... the fish oil.

So, once more, anti-proof that the medical community is anti-supplement.
 
fls said:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly." - Robert Heinlein

Linda
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Sounds like a charge nurse job description. ;)
 
Perpetual Student said:
No, it is you who are confusing an anti-supplement mentality with a pretense of "pro-science based medicine." Many non-scientific practices within medicine continue to this day. It appears to be only when something is out of the reach of the medical field (like supplements) that science is invoked.
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?????????

How is it you determine the benefit of the supplements?

And why is it you think science based medicine would ignore the benefits of supplements?
 
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