nurse cuffed by cop for not breaking law

[Travis]

To further enrage my understanding is that the victim was in a car accident caused by a police pursuit of another vehicle. It seems like the police were fishing to establish a way to not be liable for the extreme injuries the man sustained. And then got really angry when the nurse pointed out they couldn't just do that.

 

[blutoski]

What makes you think the cop was able to draw blood?

Here's an example source: ['This is crazy,' sobs Utah nurse as cop roughs her up for not taking illegal blood sample for him]

Relevant passage:

A neighboring police department sent Payne, a trained police phlebotomist, to collect blood from the patient and check for illicit substances, as the Tribune reported. The goal was reportedly to protect the trucker, who was not suspected of a crime. His lieutenant ordered him to arrest Wubbels if she refused to let him draw a sample, according to the Tribune.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There is so much going on there. The nurse is in contact with her supervisors,
printed a copy of the hospital policy for the officer, noted the patient was not under arrest but was the victim of an accident caused by a suspect fleeing police (says a lot like maybe the cops were worried about liability given they were chasing the perp).

Porter said what is just as disturbing are comments caught on Payne's body camera video while he was talking to another officer. Payne can be heard talking about his other job as an ambulance driver, and how Wubbels' arrest might affect that.

"I’ll bring 'em all the transients and take the good patients elsewhere," he is heard saying about the hospital.

"Even if he’s joking, this is not funny," Porter said. "I mean, there are so many things wrong with that statement I can’t even begin.”

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Is that really the case here? Evidence which is illegally obtained is often thrown out, but usually the defendant is the one whose rights were violated in obtaining that evidence. If the rights of some third party are violated, does the defendant still have standing to have it thrown out? Or does it require the third party whose rights were violated to object in order for the evidence to be discarded? Can the victim retroactively approve the obtaining of that evidence? IANAL, but it's the sort of thing I can imagine as being possible.

Not that this excuses the cop, since the act is still illegal in and of itself, just that the consequences for the case the police are trying to build aren't actually so obvious to me.

Again, if the nurse quietly goes along with it and the cops quietly get a peek at the answers in the back of the book and it casts shade on their case, then they'll offer a weak plea deal that will get snapped up, thus precluding any motions hearings that would reveal the tainted discovery.

The only thing that can go wrong is a nurse who knows her stuff and has a spine...

They found her.

 

[blutoski]

Not that this excuses the cop, since the act is still illegal in and of itself, just that the consequences for the case the police are trying to build aren't actually so obvious to me.

While they're framing the action as intended to be in the victim's best interest, I think the case they were really trying to build was "Our reckless car chase of the suspect wasn't responsible for this collision, the innocent bystander was stoned anyway."

So, you can see why obtaining a warrant would be tricky.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here's an example source: ['This is crazy,' sobs Utah nurse as cop roughs her up for not taking illegal blood sample for him]

Relevant passage:

A trained phlebotomist cannot just walk in a hospital and draw blood on a patient. If there was an agreement, it needed to be in a written policy and the nurse showed the officer the policy was not what he thought it was.

Phlebotomy is a certified task, meaning the certified person is not licensed, ergo they have to act under the authority of a licensed professional and that would require a licensed person at the hospital (the nurse or a doctor) and the hospital policy would have to allow it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

While they're framing the action as intended to be in the victim's best interest, I think the case they were really trying to build was "Our reckless car chase of the suspect wasn't responsible for this collision, the innocent bystander was stoned anyway."

So, you can see why obtaining a warrant would be tricky.

I totally agree with this. The cop's claim he was protecting the patient was specious.

 

[Dave Rogers]

While they're framing the action as intended to be in the victim's best interest, I think the case they were really trying to build was "Our reckless car chase of the suspect wasn't responsible for this collision, the innocent bystander was stoned anyway."

So, you can see why obtaining a warrant would be tricky.

In Minneapolis, of course, they'd have probably got a search warrant for his house.

Dave

 

[GlennB]

Again, if the nurse quietly goes along with it and the cops quietly get a peek at the answers in the back of the book and it casts shade on their case, then they'll offer a weak plea deal that will get snapped up, thus precluding any motions hearings that would reveal the tainted discovery.

The only thing that can go wrong is a nurse who knows her stuff and has a spine... They found her.

Twice on the US Olympic alpine skiing team, I read, including in her home town. Good for her

 

[Ziggurat]

While they're framing the action as intended to be in the victim's best interest, I think the case they were really trying to build was "Our reckless car chase of the suspect wasn't responsible for this collision, the innocent bystander was stoned anyway."

So, you can see why obtaining a warrant would be tricky.

If that's the case, then the victim would certainly have reason to not want any evidence collected that way used. And I'm certainly not defending the police action here, it was wrong even if their nominal excuse was the true motive. I am still curious about the technical legal issue, though.

 

[Information Analyst]

Twice on the US Olympic alpine skiing team, I read, including in her home town. Good for her

Her pre-existing Wikipedia page is being rapidly expanded:

Alex Shaffer (alpine skier)

 

[Giordano]

Nurses are not allowed to draw blood without a doctor's order.

Unconscious patients are under a doctor's care, the doc can make decisions for them.

State law probably requires consent to drunk tests as a condition of drivers license.

The cop should have talked to the doc. I suspect that is the way the system works.

I believe this is not correct in regard to this situation. The patient's doctor can request drawing of blood for medical purposes. In contrast the patient's doctor cannot draw blood, provide blood, or permit anyone else to draw blood for the criminal justice system. To do so in this case required fulfilling one of the three rules specified in the articles/videos,, none of which were met by the police.

Further, in most locals it is assumed that an unconscious patient would provided consent for emergency treatment, but that consent does not go any further than that.

As to the implied consent in regard to driving- the article indicates that the law had changed and did not apply to the unconscious truck driver.

The nurse and her supervisors did an amazing job calmly explaining and documenting to the police officer the exact rules involved. It is remarkable that he only became more irate and violent, and as I hope, demonstrated himself to be unfit for a career in law enforcement.

 

[Beerina]

Home of the Free, eh?

These incidents come to the front precisely because they are either wrong, or something that should be made wrong. You have every right to film police in action in public, as long as you don't interfere by getting too close. How's that right elsewhere?

 

[Information Analyst]

These incidents come to the front precisely because they are either wrong, or something that should be made wrong. You have every right to film police in action in public, as long as you don't interfere by getting too close. How's that right elsewhere?

Not a problem where I am, although in this case it was the bodycam of another officer, not a member of the hospital staff or a member of the public.

 

[Giordano]

These incidents come to the front precisely because they are either wrong, or something that should be made wrong. You have every right to film police in action in public, as long as you don't interfere by getting too close. How's that right elsewhere?

I believe this is not settled law. My understanding is that it is a complex question, at least one court has held it is not a Constitutional right, and I believe it varies from state to state.

Also, of course, it depends on what you mean by elsewhere. the UK? France? Germany?

 

[Trebuchet]

I find this part disturbing:

“So why don’t we just write a search warrant,” the officer wearing the body camera says to Payne.

“They don’t have PC,” Payne responds, using the abbreviation for probable cause, which police must have to get a warrant for search and seizure. He adds that he plans to arrest the nurse if she doesn’t allow him to draw blood. “I’ve never gone this far,” he says.

Pretty clear indication that he's done this before and gotten away with it.

 

[Ziggurat]

I believe this is not settled law. My understanding is that it is a complex question, at least one court has held it is not a Constitutional right, and I believe it varies from state to state.

It's not settled in that it hasn't reached the SCOTUS, but it's reached multiple circuit courts (1st, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th), and every circuit court that has ruled on the topic has ruled that it's a constitutional right. Judges in lower courts not covered by these circuits could still rule otherwise, but given the track record so far, odds are in favor of any plaintiff appealing such a ruling even in the remaining circuits.

Of course, not everyone would bother to appeal, and one shouldn't have to appeal either.

 

[Dr. Keith]

The nurse and her supervisors did an amazing job calmly explaining and documenting to the police officer the exact rules involved. It is remarkable that he only became more irate and violent, and as I hope, demonstrated himself to be unfit for a career in law enforcement.

I doubt he will miss a paycheck.

I hope I am wrong.

 

[Imhotep]

How long until these guys start paying attention to the internet and the trend of people posting videos of cops doing improper stuff, and realize they should cool it?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

How long until these guys start paying attention to the internet and the trend of people posting videos of cops doing improper stuff, and realize they should cool it?

Not until cops actually start getting punished for it, the way any other profession would. If it was another nurse caught trying to pull this stunt, they'd lose their license and would never nurse again.