Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

And I detest this whole "X number of homes" bull. 500 homes would assume 3 kilowatts per home. Assuming the wind is blowing pretty damn good then that would be enough for 500 homes at 3kw each.

Actually, 3 kw per home is rather high. I've heard 1.5 kw before, but as I was looking for information about downtimes for Ontario nukes, I happened upon an article that stated that the average demand from an Ontario house is just 1 kW. Here's the link:

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/ne...ERATIONS-OPG-PICKERING-COL.XML&archived=False
 
No need to. Solar can provide all the power "needed". It is the cost and storage problem that has been the obstacle. More sunlight falls on the roof of a house each day than the house can use. Add in the garage, the driveway, parking lots, there is far more energy than we could use. It is being able to afford it that is preventing solving the energy problem.

The bigger problem is that it is "ugly". The reality is that it would cost much less if it were mandatory and universal... but the people who can currently afford it think it is an eyesore, and brings down property values, so it is a no-go.
 
I don't find a roof top that is making me money every day "ugly". I call it beautiful. :D

I live in a suburban neighborhood where it is not uncommon for a person to buy 6-7 lots, and then put in a soccer field for the kids. You and I might find saing money and not polluting to be a beautiful thing... but if you don't have the minimum number of trees in your yard, or an ugly car, be prepared to pay huge fines to the city.
 
You have to pay a fine if you don't have an ugly car???
If property values go up, your property tax goes up, I think.

Also, if a windmill can fuel 200 homes, or even 500 homes, how much industry can it fuel? And what about places where putting it out in open fields with high winds isn't really an option?
 
If property values go up, your property tax goes up, I think.

I think that's the opposite of what Joe Ellison was saying. He says people have ideas of beauty which include trees and cars, make regulations requiring them, and fine people who don't have them. Presumably, they want property taxes to be as high as possible. You make it sound like the property tax is a fine itself, which I don't think was the point.

It's an interesting perspective. Is that what you meant to say?

Also, if a windmill can fuel 200 homes, or even 500 homes, how much industry can it fuel?

Industry varies widely. A lot of modern industry is built up on a surplus of cheap energy, and depends on it, often for products like cars, that are in themselves energy intensive to operate. We've done some very stupid things, becoming dependent on a finite resource that we've used up in a few generations. Wind fuelled a great deal of industry in the past. The term windmill retains the industrial word "mill".

And what about places where putting it out in open fields with high winds isn't really an option?

Residential rooftop wind turbines are emerging. Some are penetrating into a niche market now. Historically, the challenge has been to overcome the vibration which penetrates the structure a turbine sits on. There are a variety of imaginative ways for addressing this. My current favourite is a model which is magnetically levitated to acoustically isolate it from the building it sits on:

http://www.mag-wind.com/mw1100.php

I don't think it's an economical way of generating electricity in today's market, but I would guess it's a lot closer to a market breakthrough than any of the advanced nuclear options.
 
Luddite said:
I think that's the opposite of what Joe Ellison was saying. He says people have ideas of beauty which include trees and cars, make regulations requiring them, and fine people who don't have them. Presumably, they want property taxes to be as high as possible. You make it sound like the property tax is a fine itself, which I don't think was the point.

It's an interesting perspective. Is that what you meant to say?

I got mixed up from Joe's post to the response:

robinson said:
You have to pay a fine if you don't have an ugly car???

My first thought was that you do have to pay the government if you don't have an ugly car (thanks to property tax), so that's what I responded to. I don't perceive upped tax as a "fine", per se, just that that's what leapt to my mind that someone may be referencing to.
 
If we want to deal with global warming, perhaps we should stop trying to air condition Arizona? If people had chosen to live in more amenable climates in the first place, they wouldn't find it a hardship.

I don't know exactly what the year-round climate is like in Arizona, but here in SW Florida, your heating and cooling costs for seven months of the year are minimal, and you can get free home hot water and/or free heat for a pool for a very low startup cost ($600 or so in materials for each, if you can do the install work yourself, lasts for many decades). Sure, for three months of the year the overnight low averages 75F and you need to have the AC cranking to survive, but year-round energy costs for a typical block-and-stucco house with attic insulation only here are lower than for a well-insulated frame house in lower Michigan, or anywhere else that I've lived (central Alabama - much higher, inland San Francisco area - slightly higher).

One thing that helps in a hot climate is not being overweight. In the summer we keep the house at 82F in the daytime and 78F at night with a ceiling fan on and are quite comfortable.
 
I don't know exactly what the year-round climate is like in Arizona, but here in SW Florida,

Hot, really hot. If luddite wants to have people where I live move to cooler climes, he can damned well grow his own lettuce, asparagus, etc. However, I don't believe anyone gave him/her the right to make that call.

Sorry, luddite, the universe doesn't run by your rules. Find a different one, will ya? Come to AZ and show us how to live comfortably without AC, maybe some will follow your lead. The rest of us will be laughing.
 
Hot, really hot. If luddite wants to have people where I live move to cooler climes, he can damned well grow his own lettuce, asparagus, etc. However, I don't believe anyone gave him/her the right to make that call.

Sorry, luddite, the universe doesn't run by your rules. Find a different one, will ya? Come to AZ and show us how to live comfortably without AC, maybe some will follow your lead. The rest of us will be laughing.
Why laugh?

If someone demonstrated a way to actually live comfortably without AC in Corpus Christi, Texas, I would have praised them as a savior and worshipped their feet. I would also save money by having lower energy costs.

I mean, I don't think it's possible, but I wouldn't laugh at them if they actually showed me how to live comfortably. :D
 
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3406.html

well, they are quite useful, but for a different purpose

glenn

As far as I'm aware, I think this x-ray induced fission hasn't panned out - I don't think anyone has reproduced those results.

More intersting that that, though, was Project Pluto, a plan to build a cruise missile powered by a conventional nuclear reactor. An unshielded reactor, I might add.

http://www.merkle.com/pluto/pluto.html

Never got built, though. Just as well.
 
Hot, really hot. If luddite wants to have people where I live move to cooler climes, he can damned well grow his own lettuce, asparagus, etc. However, I don't believe anyone gave him/her the right to make that call.

Sorry, luddite, the universe doesn't run by your rules. Find a different one, will ya? Come to AZ and show us how to live comfortably without AC, maybe some will follow your lead. The rest of us will be laughing.
Actually, I suspect the reason Arizona has only recently experienced a surge in population has more to do with low agricultural productivity than availability of air conditioners. It's an arid climate. People seem always to have figured out how to live moderately comfortably where they could feed themselves. Cheap energy just made it possible to feed yourself in previously uninhabitable areas, either by pumping water to areas where it had previously been inadequate or by trucking food in from more productive areas.

Okay, I just did a cursory search. The total value of Arizona's agricultural production is $6.3 billion and the source also pointed out that:

Most Arizona soils have very low levels of organic matter, usually less than 1% by weight.

Our top soils around the state average only about one-half inch.

http://www.agclassroom.org/kids/stats/arizona.pdf

By contrast, Ontario's agricultural productivity is $30 billion. So we actually do grow our own lettuce. In fact, we export $6.9 billion worth annually to the United States, more than Arizona's entire agricultural output.

So the real question is, when cheap oil is gone, will Arizonans still be able to afford to truck in lettuce from places like Ontario.

http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GONE/2007/10/01/c7135.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html

I don't want to tell people where to live. I'm only observing that the status quo cannot continue. So it is in the best interests of Arizonans themselves to get their house in order. I'm happy to leave you to your own solutions.

But let's be serious about the problem at hand. I'm going to quote my energetic friend Jeff Berg from a piece he published somewhere and sent to me directly. The only thing I have to add to this piece is that we are using more and more energy just to extract the energy we need. And that means more and more emissions just for the energy we "need". Where oil used to be extracted with a 100:1 rate of energy return, it's now economical in the Alberta tar sands to operate at an EROI (Energy Return on Investment) of less than 2:1 with some analysts observing that in some cases the EROI is actually negative. So getting the same productive energy is going to mean extracting and burning 50 times more fuel or more. I'm just saying, to me learning to live without an air conditioner is a worthwhile goal.

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/oil+sands-tar+sands-peak+oil/508

When Confronting Problems of Scale

Never: Underline, CAPITALIZE, bold or Exclaim!

(North American consumption excepted)


The U.S. imports far more oil than any other country USES! 14 Mmb/d. (Mmb/d: Million barrels per day) In fact no country uses even half of what the U.S. imports. In order to get to the U.S. number you have to add together the consumption of Australia, the Netherlands, Indonesia, Spain, the U.K., Italy, Mexico, France, and Canada. Did I mention this is just what the U.S. imports? i.e. That which makes it highly vulnerable.

Aka. What, if it was denied, would cause its economy to drop like it was shot through the brain stem.

When you look at total U.S. consumption, about 20 million barrels a day, then what you are talking about is a sum that is greater than what is consumed by a 194 countries combined! That's right more than what is consumed by 194 countries of this our world, planet earth, the third rock from the sun. To put it another way, because redundancy is impossible with such a fact, the U.S. consumes more than the sum of every country in the world outside of the top 20.

Announcers Voice: “At half time for the Age of Oil and Gas:

The score is U.S. 20: Rest of World ( ROW) 19

(Mmb/d)

Is this not stunning? Does this not blow your brains to smithereens and make you wonder what rock this fact has been hiding under for all these years? Or is it we who have been under the rock? And is this not the kind of news that every last one of your countrymen and women should have on their memory speed dial? At first glance at the very least it does go some way towards explaining a few things.

Because after all energy not money is what makes the world go round. Money is a collective fiction that we use to facilitate barter. Energy on the other hand Matters. It is the foundation of all wealth in the modern age. Since 1905 it is also the sine qua non of military superiority. 1905 being the year the Brits switched their naval fleet over from coal to oil despite having no internal supplies. A move that launched the Great Oil Game that we still see being played out in the Middle East and around the world today and for the foreseeable future. Our own country being increasingly very much not immune to the stresses caused by America’s appetite for things liquid. [5] And don’t get me wrong I fully recognize that this is an appetite that we very much share though there are considerably less of us and we have yet to make our own supplies inadequate.

Oil is the source of much of the physical work that is done by a modern industrial economy. One barrel of oil doing the equivalent in the physics sense of the term of work as 23,200 man hours of labour. Just try pushing your average SUV 15 to 18 miles and you begin to get a sense of what a mere 1 gallon of gasoline does. Once you’ve completed this experiment as a side bonus for your efforts you can ruminate on the fact that herein lies a battle that North American society finally wins! A Japanese citizen after all would have to push their automobile 35 to 40 miles. And imagine if you can trying to dig the foundation for a house, much less an office tower or a subdivision, without a backhoe.

What 14 million barrels of oil can do is the equivalent of three, two, four, eight, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero man hours of work. aka 324.8 billion man hours of labor. This is what the U.S. imports DAILY. America thinks it has a problem with a dependency on Mexican labourers? They are well and truly but the most miniscule of drops in the supertanker by comparison. And this is day in-day out. No cigarette breaks, no chit chat, no office romances, no union, no vacation time, no health benefits, no insubordination and no rest for the wicked. (Oil being known as the Devil’s blood and/or tears. Would that make natural gas his breath?)

The entire work force of the U.S. is, oh let's call it for the sake of mathematical ease, 150 million people. In 8 hours 150 million people can do 1.2 billion man hours of labour. In other words. It would take the entire work force of the U.S. labouring 8 hours a day for 5 days a week for 3/4 of the year, and 6 days a week for the rest the rest of the year WITH NO WEEKS OFF, to do the same man hours of work as what imported oil alone does every single day. If you add in the rest of the oil America consumes in a single day and compare that to its labour force: Then every member of the labour force would have to work 6 days a week, 10.25 hours a day, 52 weeks a year, to equal ONE DAY of the work oil does every day of the calendar year without so much as a labour day off.[6]

And this is only the work that the oil is doing. America is also consuming 23 Trillion cubic feet of natural gas per year. (1% is LNG)[7] That's right trillion and 23 of them.

That's a 23 followed by 12 zeros or what looks like this: 23,000,000,000,000 This is the equivalent of another 11.19 million barrels of oil daily. And then of course there is the 1.112 billion tons of coal which is equivalent to about 10.9 Mmb/d. Now that I've got you started I'll let you do the rest of the math on what this means in terms of how much work will have to be replaced when this stuff goes the way of all flesh. If you really feel a need to add nuclear energy to this equation I leave you to your leg and math work. (One fact for free, there are 103 nuke plants in U.S.) I’ve belaboured this point enough methinks.

Though the above doesn’t even factor the things that oil and gas can do that no human can do no matter how many of them you enslave or liberate or how hard and/or smart they work. Petro, Agri and Pharma chemicals are all utterly dependent on these most malleable of molecules. The computer that I am typing this piece on being a rather good for example.

Without fossil fuel energy there is no modern life as we know it. Most especially terrifying for the gilded class is that without liquid fuels there is most certainly no high life. We as of yet not having surmounted the coal shoveling rate technical hurdle that 747’s present. Without liquid fuels there is no globalized corporate world economy much less just in time inventory and 'business class' seating. There is no American ‘superpower’ and super-reach and wars once again become a ground force game of attrition and once again labour is nowhere near as ‘offshorable’.

Furthermore there is no booming-stock-market-retire-by-the-time-you’re-forty meme and no thousands upon thousands of millionaires and hundreds of billionaires juicing it up and trickling it down on America. There is no breakfast in New York and dinner in Paris with a stopover in London for a spot of tea. None of this would exist in America or anywhere else without access to oil and gas. And for America this means increasingly OPOG. (Other People's Oil and Gas)[8]

Things were very much not always this way. Before the 20th Century oil stayed pretty much exclusively in the country where it was produced. And in 1901 just before the first great American discovery the largest producing well in the world was in Russia and producing a mere 4 to 5 thousand barrels a day. And this was the greatest producing well in the history of all of humankind! Well all that changed with the great discovery on January 10, 1901 in eastern Jefferson County, Texas. The discoveries at Spindletop quickly yielded several hundred thousands barrels a day and America and the world were changed. Though it is true to say that the jury is still very much out on the forever part. Fossils and geology having the tendency to cause one to pause over the ephemeral nature of all carbon based living things.

Spindletop and ensuing discoveries led to a 10.2 million barrels a day production capacity. This is what made America so "energetic" and power full. This and not "rugged individualism" or "entrepreneurialism" or "unleashing the power of the market" or "being the elect of god" was the single most important factor to America becoming the most dominant economy and military that this ole world of ours has ever seen.[9] The thing about oil and military dominance is of course that, like us and our reach, it is finite. The current administration in both Canada and the U.S. knowing a great deal about the value of the former while failing to understand the limitations of the latter.

America peaked at 10.2 million barrels a day in December 1970 and today produces but half that amount.[10] 1970 was also before America’s balance of payments and debt were stratospheric and before she became so wholly dependent on others for her energy. Coincidence? You decide. Canada on the other hand has never produced more oil and gas and our balance of payments and debt to GDP ratio are the envy of the world.

What is not up for debate is whether American production will continue to dwindle. It will.[11] Getting smaller and smaller while America tries to import more and more from an oil thirsty world. The laws of the market making ever more strident demands for the kind of price that unsubstitutable goods always command. Unsubstitutable in the medium term at least in the longer term this situation will be absolutely be remedied either by sagacity or geology. Still, in the near term how is this oil to be paid for? America's balance of payments is already so out of whack that the whole world trembles at the dread spectre of default.

And if this were not bad enough, yes, sorry to say we're not done yet. Soon, oh so very soon, the very same will be as desperately and incalculably and dangerously true of America's natural gas supply. The U.S. consumes 25% of the world’s natural gas and owns 3%. And according to Alan Greenspan and the former chairman of Exxon Lee Raymond and a whole bevy of geologists America’s production has passed peak. (Let us hope Alberta’s experience isn’t a perfect indicator of what’s to come)

And while we are on the subject of depletion and things liquid I could go on about the depletion rate of Ogallala[12], and the Colorado not reaching the ocean anymore and the insanity of a golf course in every desert and a swimming pool in every pot but I won’t. And I won’t not the least because we Canadians are NO BETTER on a per capita consumption and emission basis. In point of verifiable fact we are actually worse.

Sufficed to say there are more than a few ticking time bombs lying in the long grass like IED’s waiting for our children to come out and play. The point isn’t their number the point is that America’s people along with those that have been swept up in her economic wake (at this point this doesn’t leave out many of us) haven't exactly been well served by her and our business leadership. That's right business leadership. Politics being merely the shadow cast by big business over America. the world and our finances, wars, and children's future.
 
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As far as I'm aware, I think this x-ray induced fission hasn't panned out - I don't think anyone has reproduced those results.

More intersting that that, though, was Project Pluto, a plan to build a cruise missile powered by a conventional nuclear reactor. An unshielded reactor, I might add.

http://www.merkle.com/pluto/pluto.html

Never got built, though. Just as well.

I was semi joking...just added the first link I found relevant to the plane issue..actually haven't studied the x-ray stuff--you've given me something to study now. However, it sounded good due to the radiation issue.

Back in my college days, I had a professor of Aerospace and Nuclear engineering. I asked him why the aerospace thing. Turns out he worked on the first Nuclear plane back in the 50s. He indicated that it was impracticle due to shielding. It would kill the pilots or the ground crew since one could not really approach the plane. Maintenance would just be a nightmare. But it could fly for a very long time.

In reviewing the NASA plans for the mars mission, I discovered many years ago that the plan is to use nuclear propulsion for sending cargo ships--and possibly manned ships from low earth orbit. The real reason is because of the thrust that can be developed.

http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/HumanExplore/Exploration/EXLibrary/docs/MarsRef/contents.htm

If you want to take a look. It would be a ton of first of a kind engineering.

glenn
 
If someone demonstrated a way to actually live comfortably without AC in Corpus Christi, Texas, I would have praised them as a savior and worshipped their feet. I would also save money by having lower energy costs.

If Corpus Christi has extended periods (weeks) where the temperature never gets comfortable, even at night, then it's probably not realistic to imagine going without air conditioning. If it has a few hours of cool weather at night to flush out the house, building materials, design features, insulation and shading can probably keep it comfortable during the day.

If it's a fire-pit 24-hours daily, all these features are still helpful, because they dramatically reduce the air conditioning load.

But I also think there is a close relationship between where people live and what they can make comfortable. While it's possible to survive in Antarctica today, it's not a popular place to set up house, and there's a reason for that. When energy becomes scarce and expensive (and it really is a question of when, not if), a lot of places that seem great today will become depopulated, and not just because of air conditioning. Because living near a major interstate is helpful for commuting to work, but totally useless if you can't afford the gas. Because if you're used to getting your parsley trucked up in refrigerated trucks, you're going to be disappointed when the price doubles, triples, or goes up 10-fold.

That's why I personally like the idea of a carbon tax. In many ways, dealing with global warming by taxing carbon means we scale down slowly rather than ending up with something like the 1970 oil shocks (except this time they'll be much worse). It also allows for a lot of individual freedom and retains much of the market we've all become used to. If we wait until we hit a brick wall, it's much more likely we'll have to turn to carbon rationing or other more intrusive measures.
 
Weather right now in Corpus Christi, TX
Mostly Cloudy
Wind: S at 20 mph
Humidity: 67%
Mostly Sunny
87°F | 76°F

What a horrible place to live.
 
Weather right now in Corpus Christi, TX
Mostly Cloudy
Wind: S at 20 mph
Humidity: 67%
Mostly Sunny
87°F | 76°F

What a horrible place to live.
Yes, because you can tell something's general average climate by the temperature in a single day, in October no less. :rolleyes:

What a horrible way to think.

Seriously, have you never heard of "seasons"? Here, let me help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasons

A little education goes a long way towards not making an idiot out of yourself. Of course, if you really think that Corpus Christi heat is no big deal, let me invite you to do some ditch digging during the day in the summer. Believe me, I know what THAT feels like, and if you think it's pleasant, then you're pretty damn deluded.

By the way, the temperature in Phoenix, Arizona:

78 °F / 26 °C
Partly Cloudy
Humidity: 25%
Dew Point: 40 °F / 4 °C
Wind: 4 mph / 6 km/h / 1.5 m/s Variable
Pressure: 29.84 in / 1010 hPa (Falling)
Visibility: 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers
UV: 7 out of 16
Clouds: Few 8500 ft / 2590 m
(Above Ground Level)

Guess by your logic, Phoenix is never hot at all, is it? :rolleyes:
 
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If Corpus Christi has extended periods (weeks) where the temperature never gets comfortable, even at night, then it's probably not realistic to imagine going without air conditioning.

That's why I personally like the idea of a carbon tax. In many ways, dealing with global warming by taxing carbon means we scale down slowly rather than ending up with something like the 1970 oil shocks (except this time they'll be much worse). It also allows for a lot of individual freedom and retains much of the market we've all become used to. If we wait until we hit a brick wall, it's much more likely we'll have to turn to carbon rationing or other more intrusive measures.

If there was no global warming, would you still favor luddititry?
 
The data selected is cherry-picked to present only one side of the equation. The statement about capacity factor is just not correct. True, there have been some older Candu plants that have had low capacity factors. Such things are common as a technology develops. The facts are that nuclear power plants have better capacity factors than coal or gas fired plants. Candu plants have a combined lifetime capacity factor of about 80% and the Candu 6 generation have CFs of close to 85% and are typically the highest in the world. In the US...nuke plants have a installed capacity of about 12-14% of the grid total but supply 20% of the electriciy due to their high capacity factor. The arguement is truly a non-starter as nuclear plants world wide have proven track records of supplying electricity. Now, one can single out a plant that is shut down longterm for design modification or refit and that plant will show a low CF. But that is not evidence. Us plants had low capacity factors while doing TMI retrofits. They improved after the changes were made.

As I've said before, it's almost impossible to get an unbiased assessment of nuclear. I've avoided Sierra Club, Greenpeace, WWF, the Suzuki Foundation and the Ontario Clean Air Alliance reports because they are fundamentally anti-nuclear. Similarly, things written by power worker unions or the nuclear industry are highly suspect for swinging the other way.

To my knowledge, the Pembina Institute is not anti-nuclear in principle, though Mark Winfield, the principal author of their nuclear assessment, would personally prefer not to see it in the mix, mostly because investing in new nuclear would in itself imply the largest budget item ever seen in Ontario, and would leave everyone with little appetite for additional spending in things that would have more immediate effects.

In addition a huge part of the objection is that nuclear plants are almost always supported by coal. That's certainly the objection of the Ontario Clean Air Alliance, whose principal goal is to get rid of coal. They vastly prefer burning natural gas to building more nuclear plants.

Energy Probe is another organization that tries to balance a lot of things. They object to nuclear because it's expensive and unreliable. They are big into full-cost accounting, but find that the true costs of nuclear are incalculable.

Ralph Torrie has headed up the assessment of meeting Canada's Kyoto requirements for the Round Table on the Environment and the Economy. In personal communications with me, he and other members of the team (including Glen Murray, who heads the Round Table) stated that they had been instructed to include nuclear in the mix. I've seen his resulting wedge diagrams. You can see them here:

http://www.nrtee-trnee.ca/eng/publi...ote/section4-ecc-wedge-advisory-note-eng.html

Nuclear is represented by the very thin dark blue line. According to Ralph Torrie, it's also one of the most expensive items in the mix. Neither Torrie nor Murray wanted it in there. They were following orders. So if Canada, with its history of developing nuclear and availability of uranium, can only achieve such paltry GHG reductions at high cost, what's the point for anyone else?

Now here's a site that sort of straddles the two sides. The Consumers Council of Canada has concluded that Ontario's CANDUs are potentially good reactors but suffer from poor management. So maybe that's how we reconcile your views with others.

http://www.consumerscouncil.com/site/Consumers_Council_of_Canada_69/pdf/candu.pdf

If you live in Ontario, you're constantly bombarded by threats of power outages from nuclear plants down. You're right, a lot of it is scheduled maintenance or retrofits, but it still requires running coal plants to the maximum and importing coal-generated power from Ohio. The climate doesn't care about the reason. So if that's the reason for the different interpretations of capacity factors, I'd say the Pembina assessment is more sensible than the one you sent me from the Canadian Nuclear Society. And to an Ontarian who pays attention to these things, an insistence that the CANDUs have a great performance record only makes me think "Well, how bad are the others?". It damns all nuclear.

Nor is it fair, I don't think, to trot out the fact that in the US, nuclear has 12-14% of the installed capacity but generates 20% of the electricity. The reason for this is not because nuclear is reliable but because it cannot easily be turned off. So any demand fluctuations have to be made up for by shutting off other sources.

So maybe that's how we reconcile the two versions of the capacity factors. One side counts the maintenance and retrofit times while the other doesn't. Nuclear plants being big and bulky, the closure of a plant has enormous implications. And if you want to maintain high demand while you retrofit, you burn a lot of coal. At least part of that demand could have been filled by investment in conservation and renewables instead. But nuclear plants require the demand to remain high. They are inherently hostile to conservation measures. And because they're so big, they require an alternate generation source that can be turned on at will. I mentioned in an earlier post that neither nuclear nor wind are dispatchable, but wind lends itself far better to storage backup, because it would be very unusual for 1/5 of the wind turbines in the Province to suddenly stop moving. By contrast it's not at all unusual for 1/5 of the nuclear plants to be off, so they need generation backup, not storage.

You've mentioned industry, and I sent a rambling response. In Ontario, 2% of the electricity customers consume 50% of the energy. Many of these users demand steady power 24/7 and are suited to nuclear. But the average Ontarian subsidizes them because they get the cheapest price on power by far. Which is part of the reason why it is not in the interest of industry to have residential and commercial customers attain 5-fold reductions in energy use. In order to support the industry to the same degree, they'd have to pay 5 times the cost for their energy, and they'd raise a stink. I think this is true for most of the world. I'm not sure it's a healthy model we want to continue with.

In a previous post you cited 6-year building plans for new nuclear plants.

I should point out that the buildout plan for Ontario anticipates at least a 10-year build cycle. They are really only expecting new reactors online by 2025. In addition, every nuclear reactor built in Ontario has been behind schedule and over budget. Some have been completed many years later than planned, so even these plans may be optimistic. Here's the quote from the OPA in their pitch to sell a nuclear component to their plan:

Nuclear plants can take anywhere from nine to 12 years to get approvals, build and start up. The long lead times and importance of nuclear power to our electricity future make it critical that we begin to plan for nuclear power now.

See the source here:

http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/Storage/41/3628_REv._IPSP_brochure_Feb._2007_for_Web_site.pdf

I would also dispute the idea that we can count on 6-year construction periods anywhere else, either. The only reactor in the Western world commissioned after Chernobyl was 18 months behind schedule at 18 months into construction. That's quite a feat. There's a whole list of others. The article below summarizes the situation, with the conclusion:

"The nuclear industry has put forward very optimistic construction cost estimates, but there is no experience that comes even close to backing them up,'' says Paul Joskow, director of the Center for Energy and Environmental Policy Research at Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge.

http://www.tmia.com/News/FinnishNucFiasco.htm

The AECL states that even with cost overruns and stranded debt repayment it's still the cheapest energy available. But they don't include insurance, decommissioning and waste storage costs. And I've never seen an assessment of what it would cost to properly dispose of the tailings.

On a side note, recently our Prime Minister acquiesced to a US sponsored plan to return spent fuel to the country where it originated. As the number 1 producer of uranium worldwide, Canada would end up with a nuclear waste storage problem of enormous proportions. The result is a movement to stop any further expansion of uranium mining and export. That would raise the price of uranium substantially worldwide. I can only imagine that Australians have similar concerns and pressures.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/254159
 

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