Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

That seems quite optimistic. Do you already have energy efficient windows?

No. What I have is a very leaky house. I go through Canadian winters in a kitchen where I can feel a breeze from behind the cabinets. So my energy costs are insane. But a lot of houses in my community are going through the same kind of retrofit. If natural gas prices increase as expected, the payoff will be a lot quicker. This kind of thing will become more and more economical with rising fuel costs.

I bought the house because it's in a walkable community with great public transit access to boot. We don't need a car, which reduces emissions from transportation a lot.
 
Immediate gratification

Here's another way of looking at nuclear power. Thorium, breeder or fusion reactors cannot come online in the next 15 years. So for the time being, the best we can hope for with nuclear is a buildout of conventional uranium-based fission reactors over that time. If we pour all our resources into this technology, we will be delaying action on global warming throughout the construction period, when we will be relying on existing generation, probably from fossil sources. Any money put into nuclear now is money not spent on conservation (which can come online in weeks or months) or renewables (which can come online within a year). The fact that nuclear plants require enormous capital investments that are paid off over a 40-year life expectancy means that we can instead invest in 50 years worth of strategies (10+ years construction plus lifetime) with more immediate returns. The planet simply doesn't have that much time to waste.

Now, if we instead invest in things with more immediate returns, by 10 years from now we should have eliminated the need for that much power from nuclear, either through CDM or alternative generation that goes up faster.
 
Whereas it would be my hope to avoid nuclear.

I'm very skeptical of the safety of nuclear. We had also better develop much more respectful extraction methods if there is to be any nuclear future at all.

But most of all I'm unconvinced about the economics of nuclear. When Ontario Hydro privatized its operations, it sold off its nuclear plants for less than the estimated decommissioning costs, and the insurance is still the responsibility of the government. If it's so cheap in theory, why is it bankrupting us in practice?

No nuclear plant is ever insured. I'm not aware of any company that promises to decommission reactors. Storage issues have not been resolved anywhere. And every reactor I hear about seems to be behind schedule, over budget and shorter lived than planned.

You quote nuclear proponents extensively. I don't trust them.

When you say it's hard to imagine renewables taking up the slack, I hear and understand you. But it's still difficult for me to get enthusiastic about nuclear or embrace using it to "its full capabilities". Why would we want that?

And at least in Ontario, the experience has been that the nuclear industry has actively interfered with renewable development. And at least here in Ontario, the nuclear industry has historically been absorbing a great deal of public investment. Putting in a similar investment in renewables would be an excellent start. In fact, it would be a big help just to stop putting up roadblocks to renewable penetration.

Governments like big power projects. They're not interested in little power producers here and there. So until this year every single wind turbine or solar installation in Ontario was put up privately. Renewable proponents encountered enormous barriers to acceptance. They weren't allowed to hook up to the grid, or weren't paid if they did. Meanwhile the subsidies to the AECL kept flowing.

And still some people put up wind and solar. Even though it was privately insured, it was still economical in some cases. No nuclear company can do that.

Now the Province has finally developed Standard Offer Contracts for renewable power. But in order to secure a place for nuclear, the lands with the best wind in the Province have been declared off limits, because they are on transmission corridors the Province wants to reserve for future nuclear development. Meanwhile, even by the conservative estimates of the Province, economically recoverable on-land and Great Lake wind capacity amounts to over 700 GW, well over 20 times the provincial peak. Winds off James Bay are even better. If the city of Toronto covered just 10% of its roof space in solar panels, it could produce all the energy it needed. We are awash in energy.

At least in Ontario, the reason renewables comprise such a small portion of the load is a historic preference for big power projects, active interference from the nuclear industry and perverse subsidies for nuclear. I suspect this pattern is repeated all over the world. In jurisdictions that commit to greater renewable penetration, like your own country, renewables comprise much more than the 0.4% world average.

Nuclear proponents also actively interfere with DSM programmes. No big surprise. The rationale for a new power plant requires big demand. So while every government office accepts the fact that conservation dollars go a longer way in meeting new demand than generation, the plan is to throw $100 billion at nuclear and natural gas and leave renewables to private developers to a limit of 5% of the load. And I speak to nuclear engineers who wring their hands wondering whether the grid can support so much "unreliable" renewable power. It would be funny if the stakes weren't so high.

Time for me to jump back into this...luddite you have painted a very inaccurate picture of nuclear power by taking extreme examples and portraying them as representative of the entire industry. Half the story essentially.

First, nuclear power has proved its safety for a long time. The worst accident in a commerical US nuclear plant--TMI--No one got hurt or received any substaintial radiation. Compare nuclear with any heavy industry and it looks very good from a safety point of view.

Spent fuel is an issue. However, it is not insurmountable. When you indicate that no one has figured out how to deal with this issue, that is not correct. The French have been reprocessing fuel for a long time and storing it in dedicated facilities. The US has problems with its storage facility, but these are engineering issues and political. Spent fuel is radioactive for about 2-3 hundred years. A very few isotopes are longer lived and most of those can be disposed of with fast reactors.

Upgraded reactor designs now available with inherent fuel safety in the next generation of reactors will further reactor safety.

Nuclear plants in the US are all insured. The only difference is that the liability is limited. The decommisioning costs of a plant are required by law to be included in the cost of the plant. Accounts are set up to stockpile money for the decommisioning activity over the life of the plant--typically 40 years. Some utilities are extending the life to 60 years as well giving extra time to bank money. Plants that shutdown early are generally small in size and are less economical due to the fixed costs of running a plant.

The last generation of nuclear plants could be constructed in 6 years if properly managed. This may not have been typical in Canada and the US, but other countries have done much better. Most of the US problems were due to licensing and TMI retrofits. However, I worked in Korea in the nuke industry and they were able to build and startup the plants in six years. Their record if very good.

Next generation plants will take even less as they have improved the design and safety by system design improvements. Also, coal plants take about 4 years to build, not 1-2.

I have to say...most opponents of nuclear power and coal power do not seem to understand how much energy 6.5 billion people use. The world uses about 400 quads of energy each year. Conservation might be able reduce that 10%, maybe 20%. Wind and solar, with current technology can provide only 10-20 quad or so. The world needs a lot of energy. Fission and hopefully fusion will be able to provide a lot of that energy with no greenhouse emissions. Renewables are not going to provide 300 quads of energy any time soon. Renewables only comprise more that 0.4% when hydro power is included...take out hydro and the 0.4% is accurate.

You have also portrayed the Candu reactor as a problem...it is great design with an excellent safety record and some of the best capacity factors in the industry due to its online refueling capability. It has had normal design issues and refits like any evolving technogy..however...there is nothing systemically wrong with the reactor design.

Demand has caused plants to be built...not the other way around. The Air conditioners came first...utilities then needed to build plants--which they try to avoid due to capital costs. That's why they promote switching to appliances and bulbs that use less energy. Utilities do not like big power projects due to the risk involved.

When I get some time, I will address more issues you have brought up.

glenn
 
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No. What I have is a very leaky house. I go through Canadian winters in a kitchen where I can feel a breeze from behind the cabinets. So my energy costs are insane.
How old is this home? It sounds like it is one built quite some years ago. It wouldn't be fair to compare a home built, say, seventy-five years ago to one built only two years ago.

But a lot of houses in my community are going through the same kind of retrofit.
This is an area where governments can play a role by offering tax incentives for such retrofits or other energy efficiency improvements.

Indeed, there was such a federal program (though not funded to any great degree) which was cancelled by the Conservatives, and not without some complaints from the public about it. Interestingly enough, later on the Conservatives decided to float a new program as a replacement.

We don't need a car, which reduces emissions from transportation a lot.
It also saves quite a bit of money every year. That's gas, maintenance, parking, insurance, and car payments that don't have to be made.
 
How old is this home? It sounds like it is one built quite some years ago. It wouldn't be fair to compare a home built, say, seventy-five years ago to one built only two years ago.

No. The techniques for new homes are different. Easier. My 80-year-old house doesn't have a cavity for insulation, hence the need for exterior insulation. For the average new house, insulation can be upgraded in the existing cavity.

But really, we should stop building crap houses. We've known about global warming for decades. We should just have a smarter building code.

I believe that Germany is moving to the Passivhaus standard. Passivhaus structures have no heating system at all (a small load achievable from rarely used space heating is permissible). I'm actually hoping Lonewulf will back me up on this. I do know that George Monbiot proposes this standard for England by 2012.

http://www.raisethehammer.org/blog.asp?id=365
 
Nuclear plants in the US are all insured. The only difference is that the liability is limited.

The liability is limited to an estimated 8 cents on the dollar. And as a result of the same Price Anderson Act, all insurance companies include a "nuclear exclusion clause" exempting property from protection in case of a nuclear accident.

In Canada, our own Nuclear Liability Act limits insurance to just 1 cent on the dollar.

For all intents and purposes, I would call this not insured.

http://www.ccnr.org/insurance.html
 
In brand-spanking-new technologies, sure. But wind, solar, and geothermal are not new. Wind power has been around for hundreds of years, and solar and geothermal are decades old. Wind power will see increased deployment, but not by multiple orders of magnitude. Same with geothermal: digging deep into the ground is always going to be expensive, there's no way to make it cheap. The only hope for something like that is a breakthrough in solar power.
Uhh, no. In the first place, I've read ahead in the thread and I see that someone has already cited the fact that those technologies are growing at rates at or above the rate I cited as hypothetical. In the second place, your claim that wind power, etc are "hundreds of years old" is specious. I could claim that oil is thousand of years old based on biblical citations. The wind power of today is not comparable to the wind power of the 19th century.
 
The decommisioning costs of a plant are required by law to be included in the cost of the plant.

Glenn is correct about the US. I just looked this up:

http://www.uic.com.au/nip13.htm

Funds for decommisssioning are also set aside in France, Germany, Switzerland and Japan.

http://cnic.jp/english/newsletter/nit117/nit117articles/nit117decom.html

Canada has no particular policy. It seems that Britain is grappling with the sudden need to deal with useless and dangerous reactors. The costs of decommissioning are proving to be a lot more than anticipated:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4140636.stm
http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2006/08/16/afx2952909.html
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1789671,00.html

I'm not sure what the US experience will prove to be once they have to decommission a lot of old plants. But it's clear that the Canadian experience is not universal.
 
No. The techniques for new homes are different. Easier. My 80-year-old house doesn't have a cavity for insulation, hence the need for exterior insulation. For the average new house, insulation can be upgraded in the existing cavity.

But really, we should stop building crap houses. We've known about global warming for decades. We should just have a smarter building code.

I believe that Germany is moving to the Passivhaus standard. Passivhaus structures have no heating system at all (a small load achievable from rarely used space heating is permissible). I'm actually hoping Lonewulf will back me up on this. I do know that George Monbiot proposes this standard for England by 2012.

http://www.raisethehammer.org/blog.asp?id=365
My home has no air conditioning, but Germany isn't built in Corpus Frikkin' Corpus, AKA, Hell. I'm not entirely sure of the political situation here, I'm pretty much a newly arrived auslander. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the direction that Germany is moving into. They're very environmental-minded here.

If I was in Corpus Christi, you'd pry my air conditioner from my cold, dead hands.

Here in Germany, I'm just cold. x.X It's been rather chilly lately, but instead of using our heaters, I've been using firewood. Not sure if that's better or worse. :)
 
The liability is limited to an estimated 8 cents on the dollar. And as a result of the same Price Anderson Act, all insurance companies include a "nuclear exclusion clause" exempting property from protection in case of a nuclear accident.

In Canada, our own Nuclear Liability Act limits insurance to just 1 cent on the dollar.

For all intents and purposes, I would call this not insured.

http://www.ccnr.org/insurance.html

The link quotes a 7 billion dollar accident without citing a source. The price anderson act was not quoted properly. See the link below.

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/funds-fs.html

I would like to see the study referenced first.

glenn
 
My home has no air conditioning, but Germany isn't built in Corpus Frikkin' Corpus, AKA, Hell. I'm not entirely sure of the political situation here, I'm pretty much a newly arrived auslander. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the direction that Germany is moving into. They're very environmental-minded here.

If I was in Corpus Christi, you'd pry my air conditioner from my cold, dead hands.

Here in Germany, I'm just cold. x.X It's been rather chilly lately, but instead of using our heaters, I've been using firewood. Not sure if that's better or worse. :)

It's not well known but there are numerous areas of the USA that did not develop, and which appear to have developed at the rates they did, due to the availability of air conditioners. Arizona, Nevada, some parts of Texas come to mind.

How many people would be in Tuscan, Arizona if you said no air conditioners?
 
The link quotes a 7 billion dollar accident without citing a source. The price anderson act was not quoted properly.

I would like to see the study referenced first.

Actually, Glenn, the study was referenced in the link I gave. The study was entitled "Theoretical Possibilities and Consequences of Major Accidents in Large Nuclear Power Plants" and was published by the US Atomic Energy Commission in 1957. It is also known as the Brookhaven Report. The amount in today's dollars would be much higher.

I should note that, written as it was by the Atomic Energy Commission, the study stressed the very low risk of such a large accident. Nonetheless, the fact remains that in the event of a serious accident, the amount of liability to nuclear power plants would be a tiny fraction of the total costs incurred.

You can see the whole act here:

http://www.dissident-media.org/infonucleaire/wash740.pdf
 
How many people would be in Tuscan, Arizona if you said no air conditioners?

If we want to deal with global warming, perhaps we should stop trying to air condition Arizona? If people had chosen to live in more amenable climates in the first place, they wouldn't find it a hardship.
 
Uhh, no. In the first place, I've read ahead in the thread and I see that someone has already cited the fact that those technologies are growing at rates at or above the rate I cited as hypothetical.

I can't find the post you refer to - do you have a post number?

In the second place, your claim that wind power, etc are "hundreds of years old" is specious.

I didn't say wind power, etc. were hundreds of years old. Out of that list, ONLY wind power is hundreds of years old, and that was my only claim. The rest are decades old, as I said.

I could claim that oil is thousand of years old based on biblical citations. The wind power of today is not comparable to the wind power of the 19th century.

Yes, actually, it is. Cars of today are much different than the first internal combustion engine cars, but the basics haven't changed. The mechanism for converting wind energy into mechanical energy really hasn't changed at all in hundreds of years, nor will it. And while the next step (converting from mechanical to electrical energy) is a little newer, it's still well over 100 years old, and the mechanisms involved there are also still the same and will not change. Wind power is only going to see incremental improvements, and those will be due almost entirely to slow advances in manufacturing technologies (ie, cost improvements, NOT efficiency improvements).
 
Any money put into nuclear now is money not spent on conservation (which can come online in weeks or months) or renewables (which can come online within a year). The fact that nuclear plants require enormous capital investments that are paid off over a 40-year life expectancy means that we can instead invest in 50 years worth of strategies (10+ years construction plus lifetime) with more immediate returns.

From a utilities business standpoint this simply doesn't work, which is why dozens of plants are in the planning stages among numerous utilities. Construction is set to begin withing the next two years. (Land is already being cleared at some sites.)
 
If we want to deal with global warming, perhaps we should stop trying to air condition Arizona? If people had chosen to live in more amenable climates in the first place, they wouldn't find it a hardship.

And so the solution is... forced relocation? I hear China can pull that sort of thing off.
 
I have to say...most opponents of nuclear power and coal power do not seem to understand how much energy 6.5 billion people use. The world uses about 400 quads of energy each year. Conservation might be able reduce that 10%, maybe 20%. Wind and solar, with current technology can provide only 10-20 quad or so. The world needs a lot of energy.

I think you're really lowballing the potential from conservation. Even pretty mainstream utilities are targetting in the area of 50%. See BC Hydro below:

http://www.energyplan.gov.bc.ca/bcep/default.aspx?hash=4

I know that after the blackout here in Ontario, voluntary measures from concerned citizens (dimming lights, turning down air conditioners, not using gadgets) reduced the load by 25% overnight without replacing any inefficient infrastructure.

You note that you worked in the nuclear industry. It has been my experience that when talking to power workers they cannot conceive of reducing demands by more than 10% or so (and I talk to a lot of power workers). Meantime, I also talk to a lot of individuals that try to push the envelope and live fairly regular modern lives with 4, 5 and 10-fold reductions in energy use. Regular civilians who muddle through tend to trust the power workers while wishing much more was possible. We do them a disservice in ignoring the potential.

The Air conditioners came first...utilities then needed to build plants--which they try to avoid due to capital costs. That's why they promote switching to appliances and bulbs that use less energy.

I can't speak for all the world, but I'm pretty familiar with the systems in Ontario and California. In both cases the only reason utilities promote efficiency is because they are paid to do so. And in Ontario we end up with a perverse system where they promote efficiency to get tax dollars on one side and try to encourage new users to fill their capacity on the other.
 
And so the solution is... forced relocation? I hear China can pull that sort of thing off.

One part of the solution would be to tax carbon enough to bring emissions down and to include the externalities of all energy sources in the costs. If we do it gradually, people will move as they find other places more affordable. Or they'll fix their houses. Or they'll get creative about low-energy ways of cooling. Or they'll learn to adjust. I believe in leaving it up to them.

But providing cheap, subsidized and unmaintainable power to keep people moving to Arizona would seem to me to be the worst possible policy.
 
And so the solution is... forced relocation? I hear China can pull that sort of thing off.

Geez.

The solution is to stop building typical suburban frame houses in the desert. The solution would include building suitable houses for the climate. Adobe, masonry, high ceilings and similar climate specific features are ancient but effective.
 
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