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Nothing exist until after we perceive it

Yahweh said:
Your very good at pointing out my blatantly obvious jokes. I realized full and well you asked for "a medal", I decided to use MS Word to design a ribbon, I knew someone was going to point it out, I had the intention of derailing the thread a little and making joke of it, I think ribbons are prettier... unless you have a problem with that.

If you are going to patronize me, feel free to. Just try harder next time, lil fella, maybe one day you might make a joke or two...
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Don't have a heart attack pops :rolleyes:

People want websites for their own inner personal reasons, question them if you like but dont expect to get anywhere.
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What do you call JREF then?

wraith: Whats the association between "male" and "TLOP" and "consciousness"?

Yahweh: He was merely humoring you and your shoddy logic, at the same time he made a very good point: You insisted that because you are conscious, the Laws of Physics were conscious, this is a logical fallacy called "Fallacy of Composition".
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Well my reasoning is similar to that of a programer and a program.
If you can show a program without a programer then you might have a point.
Since my argument is "fallacious", you can show that TLOP is non-conscious?

wraith: Obviously, TLOP has all the information it needs to "create" consciousness. To say that TLOP is non-conscious, to me, is ludicrous.

Yahweh: Well then, most would assume then you have absolutely little if any understanding of what Physics really is. Educate yourself before you make your claims like this.
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I try not to make double standards my specialty....

wraith: You might aswell claim that all the programs running or your computer spawned out of nowhere.

Yahweh: "A watch without a maker" is circular logic. Some had to make the watch didnt they, well someone also had to make the creator the of the watch, someone had to make the creator of the of the creator of the watch, someone... do you see why its circular? Its not considered an argument, at best its considered "well, at least I tried".
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I believe that it's a possibility that God worhips a God/s and so forth. I don't see how this is illogical.
I take it that you believe that the universe came from nothing? That's more of a "well, at least I tried".

Remember, Physics isnt the only science, all the known accepted sciences and Mathematics work symbiotically with one another. That's why Physics describes projectile motion better than it describes numerical cognitive neuralscience, its why proportions and stoichiometry works better for Chemical equations than Vector Physics or the Laws of Motion, its why acoustics (another branch of Physics) is better to describe "acoustics" than Electro-magnetics, welcome to the wonderful world of Cosmology, kids!
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All of which are governed by rules, which I collectively call "TLOP".
 
Obviously, TLOP has all the information it needs to "create" consciousness. To say that TLOP is non-conscious, to me, is ludicrous.[/QUOTE]


Bad analogy.

I have all the information I need to create a sock puppet. To say that I am not a sock puppet, to me, is ludicrous.


I believe that it's a possibility that God worhips a God/s and so forth. I don't see how this is illogical.
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So then why are we bothering with this god lets go over his head
to the big, big guy.
 
wraith: Obviously, TLOP has all the information it needs to "create" consciousness. To say that TLOP is non-conscious, to me, is ludicrous.

uruk: Bad analogy.

I have all the information I need to create a sock puppet. To say that I am not a sock puppet, to me, is ludicrous.
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Well to say that youre not at least a socket pocket is ludicrous.
:roll:
 
The fact that a clock must have been made by someone does not imply that the universe needs to have been created by something (regardles of its gender).

An analogy can be made between this line of reasoning and some attemps to use "common sense" or "daily experience" with physics. Common sense will fail, while the predictions based on the equations will not. You know that the clock needs a maker (because theres an intrinsic logic in its internal parts arrangements and on the way they work), then you extrapolate this "trivial" or "daily experience" to natural systems (because they have a degree of organization and follow basic sets of logical rules) and the whole universe (every set of logic rules must have been created by someone). That´s quite a jump, and to me it seems that our "common sense" is just too limited to be applied to the universe. Our "common sense" fails to predict situations that are trivial for Newtonian physics (that can be used to predict the vast majority of our daily experiences). Perhaps you should consider the possibility that this "clock without a maker" line of reasoning is just too shallow to be extrapolated to the universe and the laws of physic... The fact that they are logical do not necessarily imply in intelligent design.

"God´s God":eek: ... Speaking about circular arguments... And who is God´s God god? [sounds of trumpets, clouds open and bright light rays illuminate me] Ooooh, I´ve just got it... Its all information, its all a fractal code, gods multiplying themselves following fractal patterns, each god with a universe with universes and gods inside. Infinity and eternity... Gods inside gods and universes within universes... I see... Monetary possibilities on this idea... Will write a book about this, create my own sect, find disciples and win a lot of money...
 
Rule #1 of Franko/Wraith "communication": Never discuss anything with Wraith, he's just an echo. Only exception is the times when Frank forgets he is logged on as Wraith, in which case you can tell it by the writing style. :rolleyes:

Hans
 
Damn MRC! ... and all this time I thought the Wraith was your sock-puppet?
 
Correa Neto said:
The fact that a clock must have been made by someone does not imply that the universe needs to have been created by something (regardles of its gender).

An analogy can be made between this line of reasoning and some attemps to use "common sense" or "daily experience" with physics. Common sense will fail, while the predictions based on the equations will not. You know that the clock needs a maker (because theres an intrinsic logic in its internal parts arrangements and on the way they work), then you extrapolate this "trivial" or "daily experience" to natural systems (because they have a degree of organization and follow basic sets of logical rules) and the whole universe (every set of logic rules must have been created by someone). That´s quite a jump, and to me it seems that our "common sense" is just too limited to be applied to the universe. Our "common sense" fails to predict situations that are trivial for Newtonian physics (that can be used to predict the vast majority of our daily experiences). Perhaps you should consider the possibility that this "clock without a maker" line of reasoning is just too shallow to be extrapolated to the universe and the laws of physic... The fact that they are logical do not necessarily imply in intelligent design.
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If not for design, what do you see as being logical?

"God´s God":eek: ... Speaking about circular arguments... And who is God´s God god? [sounds of trumpets, clouds open and bright light rays illuminate me] Ooooh, I´ve just got it... Its all information, its all a fractal code, gods multiplying themselves following fractal patterns, each god with a universe with universes and gods inside. Infinity and eternity... Gods inside gods and universes within universes... I see... Monetary possibilities on this idea... Will write a book about this, create my own sect, find disciples and win a lot of money... [/B]
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Sure why not? :rolleyes:
 
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