Nothing exist until after we perceive it

[Upchurch]

Evasion through Sock Puppet.

Now there is a tactic you won't learn on the debate team.

 

[whitefork]

Evasion through Sock Puppet.

ESP for short. And now we have incontrovertable evidence for it. Alert the media!

 

[gentlehorse]

Re: There has to be a pony in here, somewhere.

I'm delighted to acknowledge your existence in all its manifestations -

I'm delighted to acknowledge my existence as well. It's yours that is relegated to the realm of the probabilistic. Sorry. Those are the rules. I only make 'em.

- it's your extrememly truncated view of what can be known that I take issue with. I don't think that the concepts "I" and "exist" and the relationship between them are primitive and irreducible, but that they are quite abstract and assume a great deal of prior knowledge and experience. Without all that - your assumptions if you like - I don't see what you have left to know.

emphasis mine--

Is this supposed to cause me to doubt my own existence? "I" and "exist" are symbols/words I use to convey the fact that I'm here. We agree on the meaning of these symbols or we don't. If we don't agree, then we are not communicating. This by no means demonstrates that I have cause to doubt my own existence. After all, I exist. Hi there.

 

[whitefork]

Hi there back, Gentlehorse, I'm not being very clear and I apologize for that. I have quite possibly been arguing against a position that you don't even hold.

I think the Cartesian method of systematic doubt is misguided since it results in a situation that all one knows for sure is that one thinks. It doesn't go far enough because there is an assumption that there is an I that thinks, when in fact all that is known is that there is thought. That thought requires a thinker is not obvious and I believe an unjustified assumption within this program. It also seems to lead to the awkward position that when one is not thinking, one does not exist. And then there's the little problem of reconstituting the rest of existence from the simple fact that there is a thought.

"I" and "exist" are symbols/words I use to convey the fact that I'm here.

That assumes the "here" - if you require the "here" in order to exist, isn't that equally as certain as your existence.

I'm delighted to acknowledge my existence as well. It's yours that is relegated to the realm of the probabilistic.

I agree completely. I regard my existence as merely probable, not necessary or even certain.

 

[Upchurch]

ESP for short. And now we have incontrovertable evidence for it. Alert the media!

Somehow, I thought there'd be more to it than that. However, ya gotta admit, Franko finally has proven something us "A-Theist Discordians" didn't believe existed.

Fraith: You go, girl!

 

[wraith]

Yahweh, that looked more like a ribbon than a medal
Nice try though haha

 

[wraith]

You know, it's interesting how Franko has never submitted any evidence that TLOP are conscious, nor has Wraith given us as much as a link to a single Logical Deist website... and they never will. So let's all follow Thaiboxerken's example.

Well since that Im conscious and that Im controlled by TLOP, then it seems contradictory to say that TLOP is not conscious itself.

Why would you want a website anyway? What you would find on JREF is what you would find on the site (if there was one).

Follow Ken's example.

 

[wraith]

Evasion through Sock Puppet.

Now there is a tactic you won't learn on the debate team.

It's quite evident that you like a good mass debate Churchy

 

[c4ts]

Well since that Im conscious and that Im controlled by TLOP, then it seems contradictory to say that TLOP is not conscious itself.

That's not proof, that's an argument. Not even a very good one, seeing how the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises. And for the love of God, use apostrophies.

Why would you want a website anyway? What you would find on JREF is what you would find on the site (if there was one).

Perhaps YOU could benefit from creating some kind of website or written source, so you don't have to go back and change certain arguments to support your dogma all the time, contradicting yourself in the process. Instead it would become a little more coherent, possibly even organized. If you're going to go around claiming it's a religion or philosophy, I suggest you start working it into either one or the other. Or both, if you really want a challenge.

Follow Ken's example.

Unfortunately I'm not the outstanding atheist he is, and I lack the willpower to ignore you completely. You're like a rash that keeps getting worse.

 

[wraith]

wraith:Well since that Im conscious and that Im controlled by TLOP, then it seems contradictory to say that TLOP is not conscious itself.

Cats: That's not proof, that's an argument. Not even a very good one, seeing how the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises. And for the love of God, use apostrophies.

Can you elaborate on this?

Perhaps YOU could benefit from creating some kind of website or written source, so you don't have to go back and change certain arguments to support your dogma all the time, contradicting yourself in the process. Instead it would become a little more coherent, possibly even organized. If you're going to go around claiming it's a religion or philosophy, I suggest you start working it into either one or the other. Or both, if you really want a challenge.

Well lets get direct. What things have I changed?

wraith: Follow Ken's example.

Cats: Unfortunately I'm not the outstanding atheist he is, and I lack the willpower to ignore you completely.

....touching

You're like a rash that keeps getting worse.

hah....GOOD

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Well since that Im conscious and that Im controlled by TLOP, then it seems contradictory to say that TLOP is not conscious itself.

So since I'm male and I'm controlled by TLOP, TLOP is male? And since I'm American, TLOP is American? And since I like bacon on my burgers, TLOP likes bacon on its burgers? And since I find your argument entirely unconvincing...?

 

[wraith]

So since I'm male and I'm controlled by TLOP, TLOP is male? And since I'm American, TLOP is American? And since I like bacon on my burgers, TLOP likes bacon on its burgers? And since I find your argument entirely unconvincing...?

Whats the association between "male" and "TLOP" and "consciousness"?

Im saying that there is an association between "consciousness" and "TLOP".

Obviously, TLOP has all the information it needs to "create" consciousness. To say that TLOP is non-conscious, to me, is ludicrous.

You might aswell claim that all the programs running or your computer spawned out of nowhere.

 

[Correa Neto]

Well since that Im conscious and that Im controlled by TLOP, then it seems contradictory to say that TLOP is not conscious itself.
...

Does not works...

TLOP made an amoeba... An amoeba is not conscious, therefore TLOP is not conscious. Or TLOP´s consciousness is an average between the consiousness of all living creatures (supose 99.99% of living beings are unconscious and 0.001 conscious- this would be TLOPs degree of counsciousness)?

I am conscious (sometimes). I was created by the union between a spermatozoid and an ovule. Therefore, they were conscious?!

I am conscious but a lot of times I am controlled by my basic physical needs. Example- when my energy supply runs low, my organs send me messages telling me to eat. Does this means my organs are conscious?

typos typos typos

 

[Correa Neto]

...You might aswell claim that all the programs running or your computer spawned out of nowhere.

The old "clock without a maker" line... Doesn´t work also.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Every time I look at the moon, I am amazed that so many craters were made in the Precambrian, before there was anyone around to witness the impacts.
Or is it me looking at them now that made them possible back then?
If so, by having a hypnotist alter my memories, can I manage to undo some of the stupid stuff I pulled over the years?

Anyone read Ursula Le Guin's story "The Lathe of Heaven"?

On the Bill and Shirl thing- we can simplify it. Bill fires a field gun at random from over the horizon. If the shell is moving faster than sound when it blows Shirl to smithereens, so her nervous system literally has no time to respond, is she actually dead?

Nb. I know Shirley Maclaine is as daft as a ten cent watch, but I still happen to be a fan of the lady's abilities as an entertainer. So let's lay off Shirley, huh? Let's have Bill randomly fire a shell into Iraq. Hey, George did it and nobody got hurt, because clearly George is too dumb to perceive the results of his actions.

 

[wraith]

Does not works...

It does actually

TLOP made an amoeba... An amoeba is not conscious, therefore TLOP is not conscious. Or TLOP´s consciousness is an average between the consiousness of all living creatures (supose 99.99% of living beings are unconscious and 0.001 conscious- this would be TLOPs degree of counsciousness)?

Why an average? Why would you relate the aveage of the NUMBER of conscious entities to the consciousness of God?

I am conscious (sometimes). I was created by the union between a spermatozoid and an ovule. Therefore, they were conscious?!

No. But there are other people who are conscious.

I am conscious but a lot of times I am controlled by my basic physical needs. Example- when my energy supply runs low, my organs send me messages telling me to eat. Does this means my organs are conscious?

Your reasoning above doesnt "flow".
Your organs are a part of your body which obeys TLOP.

 

[wraith]

wraith: You might aswell claim that all the programs running or your computer spawned out of nowhere.

Correa Neto:The old "clock without a maker" line... Doesn´t work also. [/B]

Lets here it!

 

[Yahweh]

Yahweh, that looked more like a ribbon than a medal
Nice try though haha

Your very good at pointing out my blatantly obvious jokes. I realized full and well you asked for "a medal", I decided to use MS Word to design a ribbon, I knew someone was going to point it out, I had the intention of derailing the thread a little and making joke of it, I think ribbons are prettier... unless you have a problem with that.

If you are going to patronize me, feel free to. Just try harder next time, lil fella, maybe one day you might make a joke or two...

 

[Yahweh]

Well since that Im conscious and that Im controlled by TLOP, then it seems contradictory to say that TLOP is not conscious itself.

Fallacy of composition...
Begging the question...

Get your facts straight:
You are not controlled by the laws of physics, consciousness is described by cognitive neurosciences and neurobiologies (physics is inappropriate for describing cognitive functions), the laws of physics is not conscious.

Why would you want a website anyway? What you would find on JREF is what you would find on the site (if there was one).

People want websites for their own inner personal reasons, question them if you like but dont expect to get anywhere.

Follow Ken's example.

I like my way better.

 

[Yahweh]

Whats the association between "male" and "TLOP" and "consciousness"?

He was merely humoring you and your shoddy logic, at the same time he made a very good point: You insisted that because you are conscious, the Laws of Physics were conscious, this is a logical fallacy called "Fallacy of Composition".

Im saying that there is an association between "consciousness" and "TLOP".

Your association is entirely groundless, thats you primary problem.

Obviously, TLOP has all the information it needs to "create" consciousness. To say that TLOP is non-conscious, to me, is ludicrous.

Well then, most would assume then you have absolutely little if any understanding of what Physics really is. Educate yourself before you make your claims like this.

You might aswell claim that all the programs running or your computer spawned out of nowhere.

"A watch without a maker" is circular logic. Some had to make the watch didnt they, well someone also had to make the creator the of the watch, someone had to make the creator of the of the creator of the watch, someone... do you see why its circular? Its not considered an argument, at best its considered "well, at least I tried".

Of course if you well-learned in all sorts of sciences, you notice something peculiar: The Laws of Physics do not succomb to this circular logic.

Remember, Physics isnt the only science, all the known accepted sciences and Mathematics work symbiotically with one another. That's why Physics describes projectile motion better than it describes numerical cognitive neuralscience, its why proportions and stoichiometry works better for Chemical equations than Vector Physics or the Laws of Motion, its why acoustics (another branch of Physics) is better to describe "acoustics" than Electro-magnetics, welcome to the wonderful world of Cosmology, kids!