Nothing exist until after we perceive it

[Marquis de Carabas]

If you and I are present in the same room seated at a table, then She is the one telling both You and I where the table is, how large it is, each of our relative position, and the position of other inanimate objects in the room. You could think of Her (“God”) as like the program that generates the Matrix.

When you cease communicating with Her … when she ceases to transmit information to you (two sides of the same coin), then you are disconnected from this universe. You sleep, and when you sleep, then Your mind becomes the source of the Laws of Physics, and the source of all the “matter” as well.

A hallucination or delusion is a similar phenomena.

How do you know dreams, hallucinations, and delusions are derived from one's own mind? Why not postulate another entity (let's call her The Capricious and Whimsical Laws of Physics) who occasionally wrests control of your inputs from TLOP and starts screwing with your head?

And please, dear Franko, you know I love your humour, but don't say "Parsimony." I've a bit of a stomach-ache and laughing hurts today.

 

[Doubt]

This reality – this universe – is generated by a single entity (a single consciousness). That entity, like all entities, is consistent in her behavior. That is what makes her an individual.


* snip *

Sorry, but you are on a tangent. The subject of this thread is the assertion that nothing exists until we perceive it. I don’t think the thread starter is including your goddess when he said “we”. The assumption here is that we, and not your goddess are the source of “reality”.

My questions pertains to why we cannot change our reality by choice within the model presented. Your ideas do not address the assumption that is at the start of this thread and is out of context to my question. What I want to see is how does the thread starter's model of reality address the limitation of our existance. Alternative explanations such as yours and materialism simply are not relevant within the sketchy framework offered up by Antonio.

On the other hand, as soon as you offer some proof of the existence and gender of your goddess, I will stop pursing the subject this thread started and commence addressing your ideas. Until you do provide such evidence, we have nothing to discuss.

 

[c4ts]

This entity is an individual because it has everything in common with all other entities? I'm sorry Franko, but you cannot have something different in the sense that it is the same, and since individuals are distinguished from others by by their differences, an individual that had everything in common with other things would be impossible to distinguish from those things.

 

[whitefork]

I'll try to start on an answer to Upchurch's question about what can be proven.

You have a diagram of a geometric proof. The diagram is a visual aid. It doesn't have to be precise; it cannot be precise. The perception of the diagram is not the proof. Sight can be deceptive. Circles can appear as ellipses.

The reasoning behind the diagram, the proof itself, is more reliable than the perception of the diagram. Of course, some demon can step in at any point and make my reasoning be defective (a la Descartes), but I can go back and repeat the process at will. I can refer to Euclid, I can do the proof again myself, I can talk to other people who do geometry. Any one of these steps is subject to error, but the more they reinforce one another, the less the liklihood of being wrong.

The proof is an ideal somewhere outside the process that we approximate by doing it.

How's that for a starting point?

 

[uruk]

Upchurch wrote:
This assumes the existence of a physical brain. Normally, I would agree with you, but for the sake of this argument, I was assuming that the physical world is illusionary which implies that the mind and the brain are two entirely seperate things.

Oops! My bad.

 

[uruk]

Think of this reality (the Universe) as a hologram, and the Algorithm that is generating that hologram is called TLOP.

I see your point here.

Except TLOP is not really a giant computer somewhere, She is a mind inherently just like yours.

However, what is your evidence or proof here. What do you have to corroborate this assumption.

the connection between your own consciousness and TLOP’s.

How is this connection established? By what means does TLOP
send you messages?

If that is the case, then why did the universe spawn/create or bring you here?

Your making an unfounded assumption that there is intenention or conscious thought assigned to the universe. He was spawned by his parents. If you mean life in general, That is result of chemistry and radiation. TLOP are such that this is possible.
This however, is not evidence for concsiousness in TLOP.
There is no consciousness involved in the planets orbiting the sun.
there is no consciousness involved in electromagnetic attraction.

If TLOP behaved erratically and against it's established logic, then there might be an argument. But in the centuries of observation.
there has been no reported case of an object falling up or acting against TLOP.

 

[Franko]

Franko:
TLOP is not really a giant computer somewhere, She is a mind inherently just like yours.

uruk:
However, what is your evidence or proof here. What do you have to corroborate this assumption.

You seem to be confusing evidence with the theory (or hypothesis, or explanation of evidence). I am offering a hypothesis that explains the existing evidence (observation).

What I am stating is that if there is no fundamental difference in the way that a Mind interacts with TLOP from the way that Mind interacts with other Mind, then it is illogical to claim that Mind interacts with TLOP in a fundamentally different way than Mind interacts with other Minds.

How is this connection established? By what means does TLOP
send you messages?

When I am able to explain this to you, then we would communicate exactly like TLOP communicates with you – directly Mind to Mind. We would be able to communicate instantaneously at any apparent physical distance in this universe bypassing the “matter” and Laws of physics in the process.

 

[Franko]

c4ts:
This entity is an individual because it has everything in common with all other entities?

No, you must have misunderstood me. TLOP communicates with every living entity in this universe. This entanglement with her is what makes this reality “shared”. But the fact that She communicates with everyone does not mean that She has everything in common with each individual.

Think of the situation (this universe) as a giant computer network. The Server (a computer) is linked to every other node (every other computer), but none of the nodes are directly connected to each other. The Server is analogous to TLOP (or “God”) and each of the nodes is analogous to a living consciousness within the universe. Since none of the servers are able to communicate directly (none of them are connected to each other), all communication between nodes must be translated and relayed by the Server (TLOP).

you cannot have something different in the sense that it is the same, and since individuals are distinguished from others by their differences, an individual that had everything in common with other things would be impossible to distinguish from those things.

I agree, but that is not what I am saying at all. The Goddess who generates this universe is no more the same entity that You are than your PC is the same PC as the Network server it is connected to. Your PC contains different information than the Server does.

 

[uruk]

When I am able to explain this to you, then we would communicate exactly like TLOP communicates with you – directly Mind to Mind. We would be able to communicate instantaneously at any apparent physical distance in this universe bypassing the “matter” and Laws of physics in the process.

Can you explain what the processes is, By what means do the minds transfere information. By what means does TLOP communicate with us. Your telling me what happens but not how
it happens.

Where do the minds exists?, By what processes and by what medium does the exchange of information happen?

I am offering a hypothesis that explains the existing evidence (observation).

So here your saying you could be wrong about this how thing.

 

[Franko]

MCD:
How do you know dreams, hallucinations, and delusions are derived from one's own mind? Why not postulate another entity …

What is your reason, evidence, or observation for believing that an entity other than yourself generates you dream reality? Can you prove Solipsism is false in your dreams? When you can, I'll be more than happy to chat with you about this.

 

[Tricky]

The Goddess who generates this universe is no more the same entity that You are than your PC is the same PC as the Network server it is connected to. Your PC contains different information than the Server does.

OH BOY!! You brought up "The Goddess", Franko. I have been holding back from this discussion because you had pretty much stuck to philosophical stuff until now. But now you have brought religion into it again, so I once again (after a considerable delay) ask you to tell me if you disagree with any of the things on this list. There are lots of links, in case you can't remember what you said. I ask this only in the interest of accuracy, since I do not wish to misrepresent you. Tell me what to change and I will change it.
-------------------
Franko's beliefs
-------------------

NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins

• This universe is part of an omniverse.
• The Omniverse, and all of its subsets (Universes, even You and I) are all reiterative hierarchical structures, i.e. fractals.
• The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
• The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
• After an Eternity of isolation, he was Infinity self-aware, but he had no idea what it would be like to experience individuality, so his Omniscience ended when Individuality began.
• Your soul is a shard of what was once an Omnipotent Solipsist Entity, i.e. The Progenitor Solipsist.
• This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
• The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
• The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
• Your actions are controlled by the Logical Goddess, but your perceptions are not.
• The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate and logic.
• Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
• Consciousness creates matter.
• Once Time achieves a certain level of self-awareness it begins to evolve (and expand). Your “extra” spatial dimensions are the early manifestations of “the matter”, but they are merely the byproduct of Time.
• The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .

How Things Work

• One soul = one graviton.
• Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
• The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
• In the True reality Gravitons are ALL that exists
• When two Gravitons interact they exchange Energy in the form of memes. This entanglement creates a decision junction in SpaceTime.
• Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
• Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity.
• Information (i.e. Energy) can be either True or False. The total quantity of information manifest as Mass. The ratio of True information to False information (quality of Mass) manifests as Spin
• Velocity is Speed of Processing (speed of thought, speed of comprehension) and Charge is Quality of Velocity
• Your consciousness is like a fractal. It consist of Two parts, your Algorithm (your Soul, the Velocity of your particle), and your Database (your Graviton, the fractal image itself, the Mass of your particle).
• Two premises make a conclusion and two conclusions become premises which in turn make a new higher level conclusion. The height of your = hierarchy pyramid is your Velocity, the width of your pyramid is your Mass.
• The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
• Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
  The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female.
• The main difference between (males) and the LG, is that (males) don’t have Vaginas, and She doesn’t have a Penis.
• There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
• An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future.
• The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
• This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality.
• TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
• The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
• The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
• True randomness does not exist.
• If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
• Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
• Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
• Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real.
• Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodynamics.
• A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information.
• Gravitons are made of time
• The Logical Goddess cannot create gravitons, but she can destroy them.
• Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections.
• Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
• The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
• If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
• Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
• At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time.
• Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information.
• The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP
• Space and Time are essentially the same thing, or more accurately “Space” (and it’s cousin the “matter”) are merely manifestations of extrapolated (evolved) Time.
• Your subconscious mind and your conscious mind are not exactly the same entity.
• Two objects traveling from the same origin at speeds greater than half the speed of light are moving apart relative to each other at speeds greater than the speed of light.

Morality

• Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
• Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
• The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
• the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
• There are consequences for the things you do.
• The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
• You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
• MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom.
• Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
• Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
• A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time.

Miscellaneous/The Lexicon

• Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
• Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)
• No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing.
• choices are preordained outputs
• In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time.
• Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic there would be no Fate.
• Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical.
• Love is when the existence of another Graviton becomes more axiomatic then your own existence.

A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.

 

[Franko]

uruk:
Can you explain what the processes is, By what means do the minds transfer information. By what means does TLOP communicate with us. Your telling me what happens but not how
it happens.

Well I would contend that Materialism/Atheism is telling you even less than what I am.

For example how do oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light with a wavelength of 6500 angstrom go from being photons to being Red?

Where exactly is the “red” coming from? What happened to the oscillating photons? What is the intrinsic, inherent color of a photon? What would one look like if it was the size of a basketball?

Where do the minds exists?, By what processes and by what medium does the exchange of information happen?

All gravitons (or Souls) exist in the ultimate reality known as “the Omniverse”. In this reality Minds are the only “matter” (only particles/entities) which exist.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MCD:
How do you know dreams, hallucinations, and delusions are derived from one's own mind? Why not postulate another entity …
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What is your reason, evidence, or observation for believing that an entity other than yourself generates you dream reality? Can you prove Solipsism is false in your dreams? When you can, I'll be more than happy to chat with you about this.

I have no reason, evidence, or observation, and I do not believe this. As should be rather obvious, I was asking you what prevented you from postulating it. You have gone so far as to postulate TLOP as an entity that informs us what goes on when we are not dreaming, hallucinating, or delusional. Why not have The Capricious and Whimsical LOP do the same for those times when you are? Or why not just make TLOP the Sometimes Capricious and Whimsical LOP and let that one entity take care of it all?

 

[Upchurch]

The proof is an ideal somewhere outside the process that we approximate by doing it.

How's that for a starting point?

Wow. Pretty good, but there is still a problem with it. While the logic of geometry is consistent, it's still only true if the premises are true. We have no experience or perception of a straight line except what we receive through our senses. If our perception of a "straight line" is really just an illusion, then what does geometry prove?

You're closer to the mark by suggesting that we can prove that a logical system (e.g. geometry) can be shown to be self-consistent, but here again, how do we know that our perception of consistency isn't, itself, another illusion fed into our brain?

 

[Franko]

Upchurch:

Wow. Pretty good, but there is still a problem with it. While the logic of geometry is consistent, it's still only true if the premises are true. We have no experience or perception of a straight line except what we receive through our senses. If our perception of a "straight line" is really just an illusion, then what does geometry prove?

You're closer to the mark by suggesting that we can prove that a logical system (e.g. geometry) can be shown to be self-consistent, but here again, how do we know that our perception of consistency isn't, itself, another illusion fed into our brain?

So what about Godel?

Are you claiming that Godel proved the Truth doesn't exist? (or perception can't be trusted)

 

[Franko]

Franko:
What is your reason, evidence, or observation for believing that an entity other than yourself generates you dream reality? Can you prove Solipsism is false in your dreams? When you can, I'll be more than happy to chat with you about this.

MCD:
I have no reason, evidence, or observation, and I do not believe this. As should be rather obvious, I was asking you what prevented you from postulating it.

A lack of reason to postulate it (parsimony) is my reason for not postulating it.

Are you in the habit of postulating unnecessarily?

You have gone so far as to postulate TLOP as an entity that informs us what goes on when we are not dreaming, hallucinating, or delusional. Why not have The Capricious and Whimsical LOP do the same for those times when you are?

Well in a way that is exactly what I am saying, except:

CWLOP = YOU

Or why not just make TLOP the Sometimes Capricious and Whimsical LOP and let that one entity take care of it all?

If you read any of my exchange with Upchurch you would know that I make no claims as to whether or not Solipsism is True. If you are claiming that I am merely a figment of your imagination (along with everyone else) then I would have to agree.

 

[Upchurch]

Are you claiming that Godel proved the Truth doesn't exist? (or perception can't be trusted)

Which proof are you referring to?

I'm actually claiming that immaterialists claim that perception can't be trusted, but that they apply that claim inconsistently.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Franko,

I'm not claiming anything. I'm just trying to see where you're coming from. And I think I'm about there.

What you are saying (please correct if this is wrong; I'm not trying to misinterpret you) is that there are individual consciousnesses which function as TCWLOP when dreaming, etc, and also there is TLOP, a further conscious entity that supplies info to all other consciousnesses when not dreaming, etc. That would be the non-solipsistic position.

Also, there is a solipsistic possibility that TLOP and TCWLOP (some individual consciousness) are one and the same, and that's all there is.

And you make no claims as to which of the above is the case?

 

[Franko]

Upchurch:
I'm actually claiming that immaterialists [Amaterialists] claim that perception can't be trusted, but that they apply that claim inconsistently.

Who said that perceptions can’t be trusted?

YOU were the one who said that the perceptions could be tampered with even if there is no evidence that they have been tampered with. Other than that brief tangent I have no idea what you are talking about?

As for Godel and formal systems, BOTH your worldview and mine would qualify as “formal systems” and by subject to Godel’s theorem (Godel’s Law), however your worldview asserts the self-existence (the preeminence) of “matter” beyond the scope of observation or perception.

If you are asserting an object which cannot be tested or verified by observation, then your belief in this object is based entirely upon Faith (not evidence or Logic).

Thus far you have not contested this point.

 

[Franko]

MCD:
What you are saying (please correct if this is wrong; I'm not trying to misinterpret you) is that there are individual consciousnesses which function as TCWLOP when dreaming, etc, and also there is TLOP, a further conscious entity that supplies info to all other consciousnesses when not dreaming, etc. That would be the non-solipsistic position.

Yeah, more or less.

Each consciousness is in reality a Graviton and TLOP would be just another Graviton.

Also, there is a solipsistic possibility that TLOP and TCWLOP (some individual consciousness) are one and the same, and that's all there is.

And you make no claims as to which of the above is the case?

Well, if I explained my worldview a little more thoroughly and completely I think you might begin to see that it is a moot point from my POV.