"Not Ever" - A Campaign Against Blaming Rape Victims

[bookitty]

And do these differ from women who rape? I'm just always annoyed in these threads where it's assumed that 'rapist = man' and 'victim = woman'.

The vast majority of rapes are male attacker/female victim. Even if a woman has not been raped, the threat is still there and it in some way affects the majority of women. Since women make up roughly 50% of the population, there is a large enough sample size to be relevant for a discussion about rape.

 

[Meed]

About 9 to 1 are female vs male victim. I wouldn't call that a vast majority. It means if you select 10 random rape victims, 1 will be male on average.

 

[Morrigan]

How many of the male rape victims are in prison, though? I'd say that prison rape, while no less horrible, is something rather outside of this topic of discussion.

 

[chillzero]

In the rape statistics, approximately the same amount of men who raped admitted to being under the influence of alcohol as did female victims. So, theoretically, we should see the same amount of posts ranting against men drinking too much and raping, as we do posts about women drinking too much and being raped.

So ... women are perceived as being unable to make informed and appropriate decisions when under the influence of alcohol ... but men ... men are just in the wrong, regardless?

This is one area of rape discussions that always makes me deeply uncomfortable, especially when discussing women who have sex and regret it when sobered up. Why are men held to a different standard? You've labelled them rapists here, without consideration as to whether they have made drunken decisions they may regret - the same decisions considered innocent enough in women to make them victims. Why are the men so much more criminal, and women are so much more victims?

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

So ... women are perceived as being unable to make informed and appropriate decisions when under the influence of alcohol ... but men ... men are just in the wrong, regardless?

This is one area of rape discussions that always makes me deeply uncomfortable, especially when discussing women who have sex and regret it when sobered up. Why are men held to a different standard? You've labelled them rapists here, without consideration as to whether they have made drunken decisions they may regret - the same decisions considered innocent enough in women to make them victims. Why are the men so much more criminal, and women are so much more victims?

Well I'd agree with you when it comes to women who just drink and regret who they sleep with. If the man and woman are both drunk and the woman actually consents, then I don't see how he's any more responsible than she is.


When a woman is so drunk she's actually unconscious though, or so close to it that she is incapable of giving consent, that's very different. All she did was pass out, that doesn't affect anyone else. Furthermore, any human being who drinks past a certain point passes out, that's a known side effect of alcohol. But a drunk man raping a passed out woman is a decision that is not a side effect of alcohol. Maybe it makes it easier to justify rape to yourself, but alcohol doesn't make you a rapist. And we also don't excuse decisions that you make while drunk that harm other people. Take drunk driving for example.


The rapist is more responsible because they actually DID something to hurt another person. If rather than pass out, that girl had hit her room mate in the face with a hammer, or for that matter, if SHE had raped someone, she also should be held responsible for that action as well.

A passed out woman rape victim is still a victim because being passed out in the same building as a man does not = implied consent to sex with any man in the same building you are in.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

The stat just cites if alcohol was involved, it doesn't give a breakdown by age group or to what extent just the fact that alcohol was involved. Which is about half. Now consider the fact that something like 35% are well under the age to even consider drinking. (the age groups over lap, but we can assume girls as young as 14 or 15 are drinking). It's safe to say that about 75%, probably more, of the assaults on girls from the age of 15-22 involve alcohol.
As it happens, I know a few girls that were assaulted and all of them involved alcohol and at least 1 LSD. On a side note Colt 45 Malt Liquor got in big trouble a couple years ago with a bollboard that read "Colt 45, works every time". I mean if ad companies know, and are that brazen about it it's prevalent.



I disagree. After the big "Schrodinger's Rapist" thread I came to agree some amount of caution is necessary. Not talking to a guy on a bus because he's a potential rapist no, but an underage girl drinking and being alone with a male, that she knows yes. YMMV.



We're talking about rape mind you.



Just a note: this was hypothetical and a ways down the road. Planning for the future.




Yes, but I've seen two guys put each other in the hospital and then walk out together arm in arm.

Well as I said, I was never a big drinker, but I did drink a little bit, and my friends in high school in college were overwhelmingly male, and though I didn't have more than a couple drinks, THEY would get drunk pretty frequently. If I had followed your advice, I just wouldn't have had much of a social life. I'm sorry, but the idea that I'm supposed to be afraid of being alone with my guy friends who I've known since I was a little kid and trust as much as I'd trust my own mother...as opposed to some woman I met this morning is just ridiculous. My guy friends were my BEST friends. The idea that I should not EVER really trust a friend, even if he has never done anything but be a trustworthy and loyal friend, just because they are a guy is paranoia, and it is not friendship.


You have to balance risk assessment with having a normal life and not feeling afraid all the time. You sound like you would want to hold your daughter hostage in her fear, and I think that's really sad.

It's like how I live in the city. The city is more dangerous than living in the suburbs, significantly so, but I take that risk because I freaking HATE the suburbs. I'm going to be responsible and watch out for myself...but I'm not going to tailor my life to the absolute safest choice, just like I'm not going to impede on my social life because my closest friends happen to have penises.

Another thing about city living- the expense of it necessitates a room mate in most cases. More women I know than not have had a male room at some point. I have twice, once in my late teens, once in my early twenties. I don't know anyone who has been assaulted by said male room mate. Your advice simply isn't realistic. I'm not going to pass on the 100% chance of getting an affordable apartment in a good location because of the 1% chance my room mate will rape me.


I think sheltering kids to the point where you teach them to be that afraid is just very damaging psychologically. I know women who WERE raped, and I know people who were raised by their parents to be afraid and not trust anyone and base their whole lives around minute threats that could possibly happen, and let me tell you, those people are way more messed up about life than the rape victims I know. I'd RATHER be raped than do things like live only where it's safest, not socialize with my best friends, not travel internationally alone, etc etc, and live my life basing every choice on what makes me the safest I can possibly be. I mean, if you're teaching them they should treat their best friend like a rapist...why stop there? Aren't people murdered by their spouses/signigicant others more than any other perpetrator? Don't get married, your spouse could murder you!

My best female friend was kidnapped out of the parking lot of a bar (some guy just snatched her as she was going to her car), brought to a wooded area, and raped repeatedly. She still goes out, still travels to the city, still goes to bars, still drives places alone at night, still hangs out alone with male friends and drinks with them. Did being kidnapped and raped suck? It sure did, but not living her life the way she wants to live it out of fear would be worse.

 

[Furcifer]

I think sheltering kids to the point where you teach them to be that afraid is just very damaging psychologically.

I'd say you're blowing this out of proportion.

First, it's not about being afraid. It's about empowering someone to know and make the right decisions given the information.

Second it's not about not having male friends. It's about not being alone with them. There's no need for a young woman to be alone with a guy. We need food and air and water, and yes we are social animals, we need to be social. But it isn't essential that we be alone to socialize.

If a guy is trying to get a young girl alone, that girl should be aware that his intention is to have sexual contact with her. That should be an immediate warning sign.

That doesn't preclude having male friends, and that doesn't preclude being alone with a guy. But at the age we are talking about that (being alone) should be avoided. And as I said before, it doesn't really need to happen unless they are intending to have sex.

Knowing that isn't going to do psychological damage to a girl. And her social life isn't going to be ruined by not wandering off with a guy. You can be just as alone in a park in the middle of the day, as you can in some guys living room at 3AM. Unless you intend on drinking and having sex. Or raping a girl.

And a girl doesn't need older boys in her life to be fulfilled and normal. At that age a girl should be hanging around guys her own age. And guys that age should be hanging out with girls their own age. There's several reasons a 19 year old guy is hanging around 16 year old girls and most of them are bad. At the very least that should be avoided until college.

Again, that doesn't preclude them. It's just more information to make an educated decision by. And as a parent, it's your job to let them know you know all the reasons and you're watching.

Finally, as far as alcohol and drugs are concerned it's illegal anyways. At least in the US, and up to 19 here in Canada. Enforcing that as a parent is your job. Granted, everyone drinks under age, but the specific risk of rape should be discussed and how alcohol factors in and how much more important it is to not be alone with a guy.

If you can instill this in a young girl's head, she stand a much better chance of not being assaulted in her lifetime. 6 or 7 years of being hyper aware, and the only thing lost is this Hollywood romantic notion that you need to be alone with a guy to get to know him and bond. As if there's something magical about it. It isn't, it's what guys play on to get girls to let their guard down.

 

[Furcifer]

But a drunk man raping a passed out woman is a decision that is not a side effect of alcohol. Maybe it makes it easier to justify rape to yourself, but alcohol doesn't make you a rapist.

Generally no, but alcohol could certainly make you a rapist. Or a violent thug or even a murderer. And not even know it.

People do crazy things when they are blacked out. I know a guy that's doing time for murdering a guy he doesn't remember killing in a bar fight while drunk. I don't know what percentage of rapes that happen when they guy is blacked out drunk, but I'm sure there's quite a few.

 

[tyr_13]

The vast majority of rapes are male attacker/female victim. Even if a woman has not been raped, the threat is still there and it in some way affects the majority of women. Since women make up roughly 50% of the population, there is a large enough sample size to be relevant for a discussion about rape.

Well there's some more deflection. I see this interesting pattern. If we talk about reducing risk or even being aware of risk the answer is, 'most rape is by people the victim knows.' If we talk about alcohol's role the answer is, 'most of the time a woman drinks she doesn't get raped.' If we talk about the assumption that rapists are men and victims are women the answer is, 'most of the time that's true.'

That's all technically true, but all poor reasons not to consider the topics. Most rape is by someone the victims knows, and most rape probably has little to do with the actions of the victim. Why would that make discussion of when those things aren't true invalid, or useless?

If someone tells me, 'watch out for drunk drivers' is that blaming the victims of drunk driving crashes? I don't think so. Nor do I think telling a female friend, 'hey, you just met that guy, maybe you shouldn't go off with him and his friends alone,' is blaming rape victims. That's not the way most rapes happen, but it is a way rapes happen. A woman raping a man isn't the way most rapes happen, but it is a way rape happens. I'm willing to bet that most rapes have some element that doesn't figure into the way 'most' rapes happen. Just like the average American has one overy.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I'd say you're blowing this out of proportion.

First, it's not about being afraid. It's about empowering someone to know and make the right decisions given the information.

Second it's not about not having male friends. It's about not being alone with them. There's no need for a young woman to be alone with a guy. We need food and air and water, and yes we are social animals, we need to be social. But it isn't essential that we be alone to socialize.

If a guy is trying to get a young girl alone, that girl should be aware that his intention is to have sexual contact with her. That should be an immediate warning sign.

That doesn't preclude having male friends, and that doesn't preclude being alone with a guy. But at the age we are talking about that (being alone) should be avoided. And as I said before, it doesn't really need to happen unless they are intending to have sex.

Knowing that isn't going to do psychological damage to a girl. And her social life isn't going to be ruined by not wandering off with a guy. You can be just as alone in a park in the middle of the day, as you can in some guys living room at 3AM. Unless you intend on drinking and having sex. Or raping a girl.

And a girl doesn't need older boys in her life to be fulfilled and normal. At that age a girl should be hanging around guys her own age. And guys that age should be hanging out with girls their own age. There's several reasons a 19 year old guy is hanging around 16 year old girls and most of them are bad. At the very least that should be avoided until college.

Again, that doesn't preclude them. It's just more information to make an educated decision by. And as a parent, it's your job to let them know you know all the reasons and you're watching.

Finally, as far as alcohol and drugs are concerned it's illegal anyways. At least in the US, and up to 19 here in Canada. Enforcing that as a parent is your job. Granted, everyone drinks under age, but the specific risk of rape should be discussed and how alcohol factors in and how much more important it is to not be alone with a guy.

If you can instill this in a young girl's head, she stand a much better chance of not being assaulted in her lifetime. 6 or 7 years of being hyper aware, and the only thing lost is this Hollywood romantic notion that you need to be alone with a guy to get to know him and bond. As if there's something magical about it. It isn't, it's what guys play on to get girls to let their guard down.

You know, I think we may be misunderstanding eachother, so let me get some clarification from you-

Are you talking specifically about very young girls being mindful not to go off alone with a male acquaintance who they are friendly with but don't really know very well?

Because that's completely different than telling your daughter she should be careful about being alone with a guy who is a close friend she's known for years and shouldn't drink with a best friend who is a man. Or telling an adult woman not to have a male room mate.

And a girl doesn't need older boys in her life to be fulfilled and normal.

No, and I don't need to live in the city. I didn't need to go backpacking through central America by myself when I was twenty. I don't need to on a whim fly to Europe for a long weekend and trounce around alone in a foreign city at night. I don't need to go rock climbing. But I enjoy doing these things and I'm not going to stop because of the minute danger presented to me in these activities.

Now don't get me wrong, if your argument is only that young girls should be taught the dangers of being alone with older boys they don't know well, then that's reasonable. I just think "you dont 'need' to do X to be fulfilled" is a bad reason to NOT do something.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Generally no, but alcohol could certainly make you a rapist. Or a violent thug or even a murderer. And not even know it.

People do crazy things when they are blacked out. I know a guy that's doing time for murdering a guy he doesn't remember killing in a bar fight while drunk. I don't know what percentage of rapes that happen when they guy is blacked out drunk, but I'm sure there's quite a few.

I just don't buy that you can do something completely violent SOLELY because of alcohol. I think that needs to be part of your personality to begin with and alcohol may exacerbate your previous attitudes.

Again, every human being will pass out if given enough alochol. Having gone to the #1 party school in the country, almost everyone I knew drank. A lot. And yet I only knew 2 people who committed violent acts while drunk, and both of those guys were aggressive jerks while sober as well.

Besides, the point still stands that doing something which only affects YOURSELF (like passing out) is completely different than doing something which affects another person (like drunk driving or rape or any other crime).

 

[Furcifer]

Are you talking specifically about very young girls being mindful not to go off alone with a male acquaintance who they are friendly with but don't really know very well?

From about 14-18. Beyond 18, or say college age, I think you begin to make better more informed decisions. During college I think a woman becomes more self reliant and the need to do things to please a guy for the sake of the guy begins to diminish. She learns how not to be manipulated.
That's why I think it's no wonder the chances of a woman being raped after 22 begins to fall rapidly.

But I enjoy doing these things and I'm not going to stop because of the minute danger presented to me in these activities.

Sure, and I've never fallen off my motorcycle but I always wear a helmet. It's not always how minute the danger, but how severe the repercussions are that defines our behaviour.

 

[Furcifer]

I just don't buy that you can do something completely violent SOLELY because of alcohol. I think that needs to be part of your personality to begin with and alcohol may exacerbate your previous attitudes.

It can and does happen. Do you believe LSD or PCP can make you do something violent? What about THC? Drugs have a funny way of doing different things to different people at different times. Alcohol is just the same.

Again, every human being will pass out if given enough alochol.

This isn't entirely true. Unless you mean given as in "administered". Some people can continue to drink all night long without passing out. It really depends on what you are drinking, how fast and your metabolism. I've seen guys drink for 2 almost 3 days straight while doing cocaine. Then there's the spilly talkers that can drink forever because the more they get drunk the more they spill. Or the bulimic drinkers that just turn their stomachs insideout well before they pass out.

 

[Meed]

How many of the male rape victims are in prison, though? I'd say that prison rape, while no less horrible, is something rather outside of this topic of discussion.

None in that statistic. If you include prison then the evidence seems to indicate most rape victims in the US are males. If you don't include prison then it's about 1 in 10, although it may be higher than that if their reporting rates are significantly lower.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

From about 14-18. Beyond 18, or say college age, I think you begin to make better more informed decisions. During college I think a woman becomes more self reliant and the need to do things to please a guy for the sake of the guy begins to diminish. She learns how not to be manipulated.
That's why I think it's no wonder the chances of a woman being raped after 22 begins to fall rapidly.



Sure, and I've never fallen off my motorcycle but I always wear a helmet. It's not always how minute the danger, but how severe the repercussions are that defines our behaviour.

Well in that case I do agree with you. When you're younger, typically you're just not as good a judge of charcter, I think. You're more naive to dangerous situations and perceiving a person as dangerous. So when it comes to advising girls about being careful around males they don't very know well, especially older ones, then that I feel is appropriate. I had misunderstood you to mean this was a blanket statement on ALL guys, including guys you know very very well, or interacting with men when you are older.

Although my one question would be...what about dating? I mean, would you not allow your daughter to go out on dates except for group dates, as this does rather involve being alone with a guy, or would you just counsel her on being careful and situations to avoid while on dates? Just curious. I wouldn't do it myself, but I don't think that's unreasonable or bad parenting or anything like that.

 

[Furcifer]

I had misunderstood you to mean this was a blanket statement on ALL guys, including guys you know very very well, or interacting with men when you are older.

No, that's the job of the father

Although my one question would be...what about dating? I mean, would you not allow your daughter to go out on dates except for group dates, as this does rather involve being alone with a guy, or would you just counsel her on being careful and situations to avoid while on dates?

Typically dates don't involve being alone, so much as being together. If some guy wanted to cook my daughter dinner he'd be doing at my home while I was there but otherwise occupied.

Cell phones allow us to have contact with each other at all times. For a minor, I'd probably have some sort of structured reporting of some sort. The onus would be on her to not take off to some "Lover's Lane" and be alone. At that point it's up to her to make the right decisions based on what you've told her.

I think however as a parent you need to also let whoever she's with know that you know the statistics and will be monitoring for any signs. And that you can properly dispose of all or parts of a body.

(I had one girlfriend whose father happened to be sharpening knives or cleaning guns when I stopped by. I started collecting knives, and to this day have a rather nice collection.)

 

[qayak]

From about 14-18. Beyond 18, or say college age, I think you begin to make better more informed decisions. During college I think a woman becomes more self reliant and the need to do things to please a guy for the sake of the guy begins to diminish. She learns how not to be manipulated.
That's why I think it's no wonder the chances of a woman being raped after 22 begins to fall rapidly.

The main target is teenage girls. Children have about the same chance of being attacked whether they are male or female. That swings drastically at puberty where girls become the main target and then it slowly declines as they age.

Teenage girls are targets for a variety of reasons not least of which is males' apparent preference for them. With that preference being the case, it only makes sense that if a male decides he is going to sexually assault someone, it will most likely be the group he is most attracted to.

 

[Dani]

I agree with the obvious: that being aware of the potential danger of being raped reduces the chances of being raped.

There are some emotional connotations when we specifically talk about the behavior of the victim of a rape because putting the blame on the victim's behavior has been used as an excuse many times, especially in societies in which women don't or didn't have the same basic rights as men (not so long ago in western societies, by the way). However, these emotional connotations shouldn't affect a rational discussion, and one should be able to distinguish between arguments that justify rape in some way and the argument that being aware of the potential danger of being raped reduces the chances of being raped.

Of course when we are generally addressing the problem of sexual assaults, we have to focus more on the social behavior that leads to raping rather than the social behavior that leads to being raped. Both approaches should be used to decrease the number of rapes, but since the perpetration ultimately depends on the perpetrator (d'uh) this is the approach that our societies should especially focus on.

Again about the emotions that surround this topic: I refuse to get paranoid about not upsetting someone's sensitivity because a topic has extra emotional connotations. Similarly, "that black man" isn't necessarily racist.

 

[sphenisc]

None in that statistic. If you include prison then the evidence seems to indicate most rape victims in the US are males.

Is that really true?

 

[Meed]

The main target is teenage girls. Children have about the same chance of being attacked whether they are male or female. That swings drastically at puberty where girls become the main target and then it slowly declines as they age.

Teenage girls are targets for a variety of reasons not least of which is males' apparent preference for them. With that preference being the case, it only makes sense that if a male decides he is going to sexually assault someone, it will most likely be the group he is most attracted to.

Right, which would make the 1 in 10 male victim stat make sense if we figure that about 1 in 10 male rapists are more attracted to males than females.

As for female perpetrated rape, I'm sure it's much less common (although I can't find any stats), although it does happen.