Norwegian scientist proposes new alternative theory

[bill smith]

Following are 16 WTC first responder descriptions of explosive noises well before the towers collapsed:

"Sounded like bombs" –Keith Murphy
"A huge explosion" –Gerard Gorman
"Sound of popping and exploding" –Alwish Monchery
"Explosions" –William Burns
"Kept hearing these large boom, boom" –Rosario Terranova
"Sounded like explosions." –Anthony Fitzgerald
"Like a shotgun going off" –Mark Meier
"Sounded like explosions" –Wilfred Barriere
"Sounded like bombs, like blockbusters" –John Murray
"You could hear explosions" –Richard Smiouskas
"Sounded like an M-80, that's how loud they were" –Tim Pearson
"Sounds like a shotgun" –Eric Ronningen
"Sounded like an explosion" –John Morabito
"There were lots of explosions" –Jeff Birnbaum
"Under the assumption that the sounds were secondary bombs." –Andrew Rodriguez
"Sounded like bombs. Like a bomb going off. I mean, it was huge." –FDNY Deputy Chief Peter Hayden

So you say these are due to explosives?


...

No blast injuries, the people were pushed down by a blast of air from the collapse. An explosive blast causing injuries of broken bones would turn your brain to mush. Failure comes due to lack of knowledge. You will fail until you gain knowledge.

...

That fits with the definition in the jref dictionary Beachnut..

Explosion,n,....(jref)........def...[A violent release of energy that is never caused by explosives]

 

[TsuDhoNimh]

Has anyone checked with ALCOA to see if they really did the experiment he cites as destroying the lab? I think their safety crews would have heard about it, if only because they had to fill the crater.

If they didn't do that experiment, he's pulling his arguments ex culo and can be ignored.

 

[Animal]

I believe Hitler did remarkably well in that bunker assassination attempt.

A bit of solid shielding can provide a lot of protection.

MM

And that blast was barely enough to shatter a oak table leg, not nearly enough to cause significant structural damage. The only reason it did as much damage as it did was because of the small contained room.

Another troofer swing and a miss.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

If i did the same with boiling oil. what will happen ?

Try it and find out......

 

[Edx]

* yawn *

Notice the part where I said you wont survive if you're that close to it. I didnt say that people wouldnt survive a explosive, I specifically said they'd sustain specific injuries like blast lung and ruptured ear drums

Stop lying about people say.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

I believe Hitler did remarkably well in that bunker assassination attempt.

A bit of solid shielding can provide a lot of protection.

MM

well lets forget for a second that you hadn't just lost the argument because of godwins rule.

Hitler was injured in the assassination attempt, it was a very small charge, 1kg, relative to that required to sever the huge columns of the WTC. Despite that, several people died and Hitler suffered a perforated eardrum as did everyone else in the room.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot

 

[MIKILLINI]

In a controlled experiment carried out by Alcoa Aluminum , 20 kilos (44 pounds) of molten aluminum was allowed to react with 20 litres of water, along with a small quantity of rust.

"The explosion destroyed the entire laboratory and left a crater 30 metres (100 feet) in diameter," Simensen said."[/I]

Alcoa wouldn't conduct an idiotic test of that nature..They're smarter than that.

 

[MRC_Hans]

So he Norwegian is a fake ? He seemed to be well supported in the media though.

Media support is a very good measure of scientific credibility, right?

Fake, or mistaken.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Alcoa wouldn't conduct an idiotic test of that nature..They're smarter than that.

No, I also wondered about that. If you know something might be explosive (and why make the test, if you didn't suspect it to be), would any sane person start with 20kg?

Personally, I would start with about 2g.

Hans

 

[leftysergeant]

We've discussed this already with the instances (and in most cases, lack of) barotrauma at the Murrah building bombing. EdX knows this.

Not even sure I want to know whose septic tank you excavated that from . I am sure there was a lot of barotrauma on the ground floor, and there should have been some on the second.

Most of the injuries would have been done by flying or falling debris. That is not rocket science. Nor does it mean anything inb this context. It was McVeigh's bomb that did it. Do you have aq further point to make, maybe one that means something in this context?

No amount of evidence satisfies bedunkers on this issue. They'll say, on the one hand, no injuries from explosions were reported, then when you show them there were, they'll say, "nobody would survive explosions from real explosives."

Horse hockey. The last clip you offered is about concussive injuries when people were slammed into stationary surfaces, like their ambulances. This is apparently following the collapse of one of the towerrs.

That much rubble falling from that height will create an incredible wind. Wind can pick you up and slam you into a wall so hard that you squish like a bug on a windshield.

Had they been buffeted thusly by high explosive charges, they would not have been able to answer reporters' questions because to this day, they would no longer be able to HEAR even Alex Jones with a bullhorn ASKING the questions. The sound of the explosion would have been that freaking LOUD.

 

[000063]

We've discussed this already with the instances (and in most cases, lack of) barotrauma at the Murrah building bombing. EdX knows this.

http://crashingpatient.com/trauma/030-blastinj.htm

In the Oklahoma City bombing, the incidence of auditory injury was 35%.1,13 This does not count those patients with partial, temporary hearing loss or those who complained of tinnitus for an extended period of time.

No amount of evidence satisfies bedunkers on this issue. They'll say, on the one hand, no injuries from explosions were reported, then when you show them there were, they'll say, "nobody would survive explosions from real explosives."

Except for the part where those were from compression blasts, not boom-boom, and the long held debunker position, which you ignore all the time to speak to your imaginary audience(because you certainly can't argue with anyone who actually knows what they're talking about), is that explosives are not necessarily indicative of explosives. Not only do you not refute these claims, they don't even seem to register. These aren't moved goalposts, this is your own oddly consistent misunderstanding. You are either outright lying, or you have a confirmation bias problem. Possibly both.

It's recess time with the schoolyard bullies. Moving goalposts.

Indeed you are.

 

[ergo]

In the Oklahoma City bombing, the incidence of auditory injury was 35%.1,13 This does not count those patients with partial, temporary hearing loss or those who complained of tinnitus for an extended period of time.

http://www.ok.gov/health/documents/OKC_Bombing.pdf :

The most common types of injuries reported by those interviewed were soft tissue injuries (61%)... Organ systems injuries, including auditory damage and smoke/dust inhalation, accounted for 19% of injuries...

The proportion of people who did not hear the noise was highest in the Murrah Building (45%)...

(In case you didn't know, that's the building that got bombed.)

Forty-nine percent of the study population suffered hearing injuries including ruptured eardrums, short-term or long-term hearing loss, tinnitus, and equilibrium/balance problems. Of persons who sustained hearing injuries, 62% heard the noise of the blast while 29% did not. The highest proportion of people who suffered hearing injuries were located outdoors (72%) and in vehicles (67%)...

 

[beachnut]

"Sounded like bombs" –Keith Murphy
"A huge explosion" –Gerard Gorman
"Sound of popping and exploding" –Alwish Monchery
"Explosions" –William Burns
"Kept hearing these large boom, boom" –Rosario Terranova
"Sounded like explosions." –Anthony Fitzgerald
"Like a shotgun going off" –Mark Meier
"Sounded like explosions" –Wilfred Barriere
"Sounded like bombs, like blockbusters" –John Murray
"You could hear explosions" –Richard Smiouskas
"Sounded like an M-80, that's how loud they were" –Tim Pearson
"Sounds like a shotgun" –Eric Ronningen
"Sounded like an explosion" –John Morabito
"There were lots of explosions" –Jeff Birnbaum
"Under the assumption that the sounds were secondary bombs." –Andrew Rodriguez
"Sounded like bombs. Like a bomb going off. I mean, it was huge." –FDNY Deputy Chief Peter Hayden

So you say these are due to explosives?

That fits with the definition in the jref dictionary Beachnut..

Explosion,n,....(jref)........def...[A violent release of energy that is never caused by explosives]

A failed definition for a demented movement.

The quotes, from people who heard bodies hitting the ground on 911.

 

[000063]

http://www.ok.gov/health/documents/OKC_Bombing.pdf :


(In case you didn't know, that's the building that got bombed.)

Um;

Locations of Deaths and Injuries
Deaths. Of 167 persons who died, 163 were occupants of the Alfred P. Murrah Building (Figure 2). Of these, 118 worked in the Murrah Building, 15 were children in the day-care
center, and 30 were visitors (including 4 children) in the building, Two additional deaths
occurred in the Water Resources Building, one death in the Athenian Building, and one death
occurred outdoors near the blast.

Occupants of the Alfred P. Murrah Building experienced the highest number of injuries and
deaths (Figure 3). Forty-five percent (163/361) of the building's occupants died, and 47%
(168/361) were injured, yielding a combined fatal and nonfatal injury rate of 92% (331/361).
Within the second floor day care center of the Murrah Building, 76% (19/25; 15 children and 4
adults) of the occupants died. Additionally, 1 death (which was not a direct result of the blast)

In other words, most of the people who died were inside the building. It's kinda hard to tell if they heard the explosion if it killed them.

Noise Perception and Hearing Damage.
Figure 6. Noise Perception by Location
Sixty-five percent of persons said they Oklahoma City Bombing heard the blast noise; 27% did not hear the
noise; and for 8% of respondents noise
perception was unknown. The proportion of
people who did not hear the noise was
highest in the Murrah Building (45%),
followed by the Water Resources Building
(24%) and the Journal Record Building
(24%) (Figure 6).
Forty-nine percent of the study population suffered hearing injuries including ruptured
eardrums, short-term or long-term hearing
loss, tinnitus, and equilibrium/balance
problems.

So, anything else you want to quote-mine?

You are carefully not addressing the paragraph of my post that includes the highlighted portion. I find that odd.

 

[ergo]

Quoting everything I already quoted, but making absolutely zero point. Interesting.

 

[fezzic]

Alcoa wouldn't conduct an idiotic test of that nature..They're smarter than that.

Found something that might be helpful or relevant.

Source: http://www.pyrotek.info/documents/i...nium_Insight_2011-02_Wise_Chem-Explosions.pdf

Some extracts. The whole thing is only one page but posting the whole thing would be a no no, I believe.

The Aluminum Association who has categorized water / molten aluminium explosions into three levels.​

A Force 1 explosion is also referred to as a steam explosion. This occurs when molten aluminium traps water which is then quickly vaporized to steam. The metal is shot up to 15 ft (~4.5 m) and normally involves less than 10 lb (~4.5 kg) of metal.

A Force 2 explosion results from a violent steam reaction. Metal is ejected 15–50 ft (~4.5–15 m) and involves much more than 30 lb (~14 kg) of metal.

A Force 3 explosion is a catastrophic event where a large volume of metal is projected more than 50 ft (~15 m). Fatalities often occur along with near total destruction of the immediate area.

One pound of aluminium in a Force3 explosion is equal to 3 lb (1.4 kg)of TNT.

Something from same that may form the basis for part of the claim of destruction:

An Alcoa paper titled “Molten Aluminum / Water Explosions” published in 1979,points out another problem. This was a test to evaluate various coatings. Itinvolved the standard 12 x 12 x 12 in box half full of water into which 50 lb (~23 kg)of molten aluminium is dropped and an impact hammer hits the side to initiate the explosion. Various coatings are tested this way. In one test, Red Rustoleum was used, but before the explosion could be initiated it went off by itself. Red Rustoleum contains large amounts of iron oxide, which reacted with the molten aluminium and caused the explosion.

Note: A cubic foot of water would be about 62 pounds. Half that would be 32 pounds or about 15 kilograms.

So the dangers are known, it would seem that YES there can be an explosion, but NO maybe not quite the kind that has been postulated.

 

[ergo]

http://www.ok.gov/health/documents/OKC_Bombing.pdf

• 83 people were hospitalized for bombing injuries (out of a total of 851 injuries)
  
• Out of a total of 851 injured, 167 people died.
  
• 46% of injured persons suffered auditory injuries, according to treatment records.
  
• Of 491 follow-up study participants, 49% suffered auditory injuries. The highest proportion of these had been outdoors (72%) and in vehicles (67%).

EdX, care to expound more on your theory about bomb explosions and barotrauma?

 

[Edx]

http://www.ok.gov/health/documents/OKC_Bombing.pdf

• 83 people were hospitalized for bombing injuries (out of a total of 851 injuries)
  
  
• Out of a total of 851 injured, 167 people died.
  
  
• 46% of injured persons suffered auditory injuries, according to treatment records.
  
  
• Of 491 follow-up study participants, 49% suffered auditory injuries. The highest proportion of these had been outdoors (72%) and in vehicles (67%).

EdX, care to expound more on your theory about bomb explosions and barotrauma?

Well you just showed that people caught in actual explosions caused by bombs have blast injuries. Where are all the people on 911 that sustained blast injuries? People getting bumps and bruises from falling over is not a blast injury.

 

[ergo]

Well you just showed that people caught in actual explosions caused by bombs have blast injuries.

But not even a majority of them, as you had insisted. And most of the hearing injuries were sustained by people who were not in the building. Does that say something about how building structure can mitigate blast effects?? In the blasted-out lobbies of the towers, everyone who was there to witness it was dead.

 

[Edx]

But not even a majority of them, as you had insisted. And most of the hearing injuries were sustained by people who were not in the building. Does that say something about how building structure can mitigate blast effects?? In the blasted-out lobbies of the towers, everyone who was there to witness it was dead.

Look what you quoted:

"83 people were hospitalized for bombing injuries"
46% of injured persons suffered auditory injuries, according to treatment records.
Of 491 follow-up study participants, 49% suffered auditory injuries."
-

Thats a lot of people with blast injuries and barotrauma.

You cant even find a single person with the most minor blast injuries associated with explosives on 911, yet truthers will even quote names of people who were caught in an explosion, thrown around by one, or even burnt by one (although burning is not a characteristic of a high explosive) Why dont truthers find these people and ask if they suffered blast lung or ruptured ear drums ("auditory injuries")?