North Korea's Military Capabilities

[Spindrift]

So the invasion of Grenada by America is classified as a war?
That is like saying a 200lb weightlifter beating up a 10 year old boy is a war?

I am sure America feels justly proud of that great military achievement.

As for the outcome of a war in Korea, well, that remains to be seen.
Civilian casualities are a fact of war, and I don't see Korea being any different.

As for the inevitable victory, err, well where have I heard that before.

Okay it was a field trip with weapons, but after Vietnam we needed an ego booster.

 

[Skwinty]

Okay it was a field trip with weapons, but after Vietnam we needed an ego booster.

3 cheers for Ronnie Raygun.

 

[Skwinty]

You may as well say that the "Bay of Pigs" was a war.

One where the USA was soundly defeated.

 

[Spindrift]

You may as well say that the "Bay of Pigs" was a war.

One where the USA was soundly defeated.

That was the CIA, not the US Armed Forces. The CIA was not very good at war.

And it was a bunch of Cuban exiles, not Americans that were led to the slaughter.

 

[Ziggurat]

So the invasion of Grenada by America is classified as a war?

A very small one, but yes.

That is like saying a 200lb weightlifter beating up a 10 year old boy is a war?

No, it really isn't. A 200 lb weightlifter beating up another 200 lb weightlifter isn't a war either. It's a fight. A 200 lb weightlifter beating up a 10 year old boy is also a fight. A very lopsided and unfair fight, but it's still a fight.

I am sure America feels justly proud of that great military achievement.

Way to miss the point, Skwinty. And the humor of that link.

As for the outcome of a war in Korea, well, that remains to be seen.
Civilian casualities are a fact of war, and I don't see Korea being any different.

Isn't that pretty much exactly what I said?

As for the inevitable victory, err, well where have I heard that before.

I have no idea. Why don't you tell me?

 

[Ziggurat]

Well, usually you only make huge trade agreements w/allies not enemies. Anyone that lets an "enemy" make their country heavily dependent on those said trade agreements is a moron.

So is China the USA's ally or foe? I think we got "sold out" to the enemy along time ago.

China is currently a competitor. They are not an ally or an enemy. They could potentially be either, depending on circumstances. And the idea of trading with a potential enemy is not moronic at all. Not only does trade increase wealth (which is a good thing on its own), it creates mutual dependencies. It will hurt us if China becomes an enemy, but for the very same reasons, it will hurt China too. We BOTH now have incentives due to trade to not become enemies. I'm having a hard time seeing why that's a categorically bad thing. Please, enlighten me.

 

[Skwinty]

Way to miss the point, Skwinty. And the humor of that link.

I didn't miss any point and neither did the rest of the world when they voted against American imperialism in the UNGA.

The then president of the United States Ronald Reagan, when asked if he was concerned by the lopsided 108-9 vote in the UN General Assembly said "it didn't upset my breakfast at all"

You also gave no indication of your attempt at humour.

I have no idea. Why don't you tell me?

Adolph Hitler and his grandiose plans of a short Blitzkrieg ring any bells for you.

 

[Skwinty]

That was the CIA, not the US Armed Forces. The CIA was not very good at war.

And it was a bunch of Cuban exiles, not Americans that were led to the slaughter.

Agreed, however:

On March 17, 1960, US President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved a document prepared by the 5412 Committee (also known as the 'Special Group'), at a meeting of the US National Security Council (NSC). The stated first objective of the plan began as follows:

A PROGRAM OF COVERT ACTION AGAINST THE CASTRO REGIME
1. Objective: The purpose of the program outlined herein is to bring about the replacement of the Castro regime with one more devoted to the true interests of the Cuban people and more acceptable to the U.S. in such a manner to avoid any appearance of U.S. intervention.

This clearly indicates the US government intent and covert approval.

 

[SatanicSheep]

Just a few things:

NK is not a credible nuclear threat. They have tested one undeliverable, low yield device. Even if they did get them small enough their missiles are notoriusly unreliable.

Synthetic fuel? Just no. What's that even mean?

10 feet of snow? Where are these battles taking place? It's bitingly cold in winter, but it actually doesn't snow very much in Korea.

South Korea has sent people to most larger US military operations since the Korean war. They have all the information about warfare that the US has gained from those conflicts.

Yes SK troops are outnumbered 2:1, but NK has very old/young/female/malnuroushed/poorly trained troops. People want to say that SK isn't battle hardened, but the military trains not stop there. They make the US GIs in Korea look like couch potatoes.

Go to the DMZ and to a quick comparrison between the honor guards on either side. SK has pro wrestlers there, the North has nervous looking, knock kneed kids. That's their best of the best.

Even the US doesn't seem very geared up for a fight. They're always reducing the number of troops in Korea and the major US military garrison in Seoul is moving AWAY from the DMZ.

 

[Ziggurat]

I didn't miss any point and neither did the rest of the world when they voted against American imperialism in the UNGA.

Thanks for proving that, yes, you DID miss the point.

You also gave no indication of your attempt at humour.

I thought it would be obvious. Not only is the transcript nonsensical ("A child's question. But not a question a child might ask."), but it's obviously a joke too ("Why did we go there? How did we find it? What did the Marines do the rest of that week?", and "gloating isn't enough".). And for all our American readers, the page specifies the source as a Saturday Night Live transcript makes it rather explicit, in case you're that humor-impaired. The whole thing is a parody ad of the real contemporary advertisements for the Time-Life "Vietnam" book series, which included lines like "Not a child's question. But a question a child might ask", and "remembering isn't enough". I don't expect you to get the references to the real ad if you weren't watching US TV at the time, but the absurdity should have been apparent to anyone.

Adolph Hitler and his grandiose plans of a short Blitzkrieg ring any bells for you.

Yeah, that's REAL relevant to the American experience of war.

 

[Ziggurat]

Synthetic fuel? Just no. What's that even mean?

Turning coal into fuel for cars/tanks/planes. Not too relevant if you're short on coal too.

South Korea has sent people to most larger US military operations since the Korean war. They have all the information about warfare that the US has gained from those conflicts.

Yes SK troops are outnumbered 2:1, but NK has very old/young/female/malnuroushed/poorly trained troops. People want to say that SK isn't battle hardened, but the military trains not stop there. They make the US GIs in Korea look like couch potatoes.

Very few North or South Korean troops have significant battle experience. So training is absolutely what will make the difference in troop quality. And you're right, the South Koreans train a lot more (and better) than the North Koreans. There are two reasons: 1) that's always been a difference between the western model and the communist model, and 2) they have far more resources for doing training than the North Koreans. The number of troops doesn't matter nearly as much as how good those troops are, how good their equipment is, and how good their command and control structures are. And South Korea has the North outclassed, by a long shot, in all those categories.

 

[Wolrab]

Well, usually you only make huge trade agreements w/allies not enemies. Anyone that lets an "enemy" make their country heavily dependent on those said trade agreements is a moron.

So is China the USA's ally or foe? I think we got "sold out" to the enemy along time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_(1940)

 

[Corsair 115]

If you have enough firepower, yes. If not, no.

Even without precision munitions, if you have air dominance you can rain down convention and relatively cheap unguided bombs on dug-in troops, substituting numbers for accuracy. The result is the same—an awfully unpleasant time for those dug-in on the ground.

Not at all. It's only true if the planes are about the same, and even then, it only applies in individual fights between small numbers of pilots; in a large-scale campaign where there are enough engagements to look at average outcomes, the better plane will still win most engagements even if it loses some, unless the difference in training between the two sides is atrocious, which there isn't much reason to count on with China or Russia.

Well, the side that can afford the better plane on a large scale likely has the resources to also train its pilots to a high level of ability on a large scale, hence the results on the overall average. There's not much point in having an advanced aircraft with advanced capabilities unless you also have a pilot who can take advantage of those advanced capabilities.

And of course if there's a marked technological advantage it will trump pilot skill. But such a large disparity in technological capability doesn't happen all that often.

 

[WildCat]

Well, usually you only make huge trade agreements w/allies not enemies.

100% wrong.

 

[dudalb]

You may as well say that the "Bay of Pigs" was a war.

One where the USA was soundly defeated.

I think your biases are pretty apparent.
Communist Dictatorships Rock!

 

[foxholeatheist]

Who did the ROK army get in a war with? As far as I know they haven't actually fought anyone.

My great uncle, who was an ROK Major in the Vietnam war would soundly disagree with you then give you a soju/kimchee breath tongue lashing for not employing the most basic of google-fu or as we call in Korea, 'tea-daum/google-do'.

Alright man, first of all Korea is kinda my hood and all. Nowhere does it snow 10 feet. I believe the South and North combined are about the size of a couple of mid sized US States. Sure, the climate is variable but not to that degree. Granted, it gets freeking cold in the North (and South) but snow would not be a factor that would completely black tracked vehicle traffic.

This tank series was made when training operations had names like 'Red Bear' and 'Ivan Dawn' instead of 'Muhalla Holla'. Get it? These machines were made to handle the extreme cold of Siberia. In fact, in Iraq our biggest problem was the heat. There's no A/C at all (except for the NBC blower but I had TC's that wouldn't turn it on and it's little more than a hose of forced air) in any of the older vehicles like our Tanks. But you can bet your last dip there's heaters all over pointed right at everyone's crotch.

All our battle drills are based off of a hypothetical war with a chemical and biological capable enemy regular. We've had to adapt for Iraq and Afghanistan. There's a reason I still see Chemical pukes staggering into my sick call at work every morning malingering about something. Because, at a time when the DOD wants the Army to downsize they're still training several battalions a cycle in the Chemical Corps. Chemical Biological Weapons? Too easy.

Barring any serious unforeseeable biological Kim Il-sung's Eternal Revenge or Super Juche Chemical Weapon. I give that a very low probability. This country is going bankrupt funding a Megalomaniac's whims and building a plaster facade of their Capitol city and keeping their massive rusty hulk of an Armed Force from completely falling apart.

You are grossly under estimating the fact that almost everything about the US Military is a holdover from the Cold War and we are adapting to the new fight very quickly. Is there an NBC system in an MRAP? Nope. But you can bet your last phone card minute there's a damn Air Conditioner.

That and if you knew anything about Koreans then you'd know they'll settle it the Korean way:

ZERG RUSH! GG!​

 

[dtugg]

Destroying NK's military would be a cakewalk.

 

[SatanicSheep]

I don't even think NK has the vespene/mineral count to launch a Starcraft attack. I think it would be good old fashion, trench to trench kawi bawi bo.

 

[Varanid]

China is currently a competitor. They are not an ally or an enemy. They could potentially be either, depending on circumstances. And the idea of trading with a potential enemy is not moronic at all. Not only does trade increase wealth (which is a good thing on its own), it creates mutual dependencies. It will hurt us if China becomes an enemy, but for the very same reasons, it will hurt China too. We BOTH now have incentives due to trade to not become enemies.

This.

While I try to be cautious supposing the motives of people I don't know, from cultures I don't understand, it seems plainly obvious that is to neither of our interests to come to blows.

 

[Varanid]

I was surprised no one commented on this. If China is so much our friends then why they shadowing our ships w/subs? That's what I want to know.

Linky.

This I believe, is further evidence that as long as everyone plays it cool, there needn't be conflict between the US and China. If China truly had hostile intentions, they wouldn't have let the US know they were snooping around. Instead, they wanted to tighten our collective sphincter a little and remind us that they are not to be taken lightly.

I have to say, reading the story made me kind of chuckle. Imagine the conversations going on amongst those involved. Though it was definitely ballsy on behalf of the Chinese, if they had been noticed I wonder how quickly this could have gotten ugly.