North Korea's Military Capabilities

To face armageddon. It is what what the military, the state live for. The South in partner with the US to attack. So they can justify the last 50 years of their existence and prove all they have said about the US and its bully tactics are true

Then they die. They know that. Their hope is to make each of their deaths as expensive as possible

If you want to compare the North Korean defenses to those in France pre WW1 you need to do a lot more reading

OK...so they're out to prove they've been picked on, and then die. Moderate, achievable goals. I'm impressed. If only they could get the evil bullies to attack them.

And you're out to prove that I need to do a lot of reading if I want to compare the Northies' defenses to the Maginot Line? But what if I don't want to do a lot of reading? What if I just go ahead and compare them? the Northies' version of the Maginot Line looks like a good place to hole up until the food runs out. It will serve well as a prison for them. Until the food runs out.
 
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And when virtually your entire force is based on dug in defense and you have spent 50 years digging in. You dont need a lot of fuel

Although I agree somewhat with that premise I recall the 'impregnable' Maginot Line.
The NK will go for around a week and then attempt to sue for peace.
My advice to the politicians of the time. Don't let up.
NK go to war decimate them. Should take a month
 
The Maginot line was a post WW1 defense against the Germans. It was the most impressive fortress that the world has ever seen. The Germans went around it in 1940.

Using WW1 miltary thinking and depression driven budgets

The Maginot line was also nearly a third longer than the DMZ. The DMZ has 3 times as many troops defending it

And does not have a forest in the middle of it
 
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I tend to suspect any official source that makes basic errors like blitz klieg (lightning stage light) for blitzkreig (lightning war) or ignores training and vehicle fuel concerns.
 
Using WW1 miltary thinking and dpression driven budgets

The Maginot line was also nearly a third longer than the DMZ. The DMZ has 3 times as many troops defending it

And does not have a forest in the middle of it

More dead per bomb/shell/machine gun burst. Of course, my pref is laying FABs on 'em first. See what the slimes think when they see the outlier bodies.* Predict large waste of food.


*piles of unidentifiable charred rubble aren't as attention grabbing as fast over/underpressure effect.



eta, I assume we know I want that for the NK side. I believe in the strong importance of education. This would be very educational for the average NK troopie.
 
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OK...so they're out to prove they've been picked on, and then die. Moderate, achievable goals. I'm impressed. If only they could get the evil bullies to attack them.

Which is why the sabre rattling has been getting worse and worse recently. I think there is a power play on in NK And the army has to find some way to justify the policy of the last 25 years. Right now everyone is doing exactly what they should. Stand back and sadly let the place implode, then go pick up the pieces.


And you're out to prove that I need to do a lot of reading if I want to compare the Northies' defenses to the Maginot Line? But what if I don't want to do a lot of reading? What if I just go ahead and compare them? the Northies' version of the Maginot Line looks like a good place to hole up until the food runs out. It will serve well as a prison for them. Until the food runs out.

Sure if you want to compare a group of interlinked concrete fortresses to a string of Tora Boras, by all means do so
 
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BTB MG that is why I am a huge proponent of FABs - they can "dug in" all they want. Nice heavy FAB goes off just over them all their O2 is used up in the FAB overpressure/conflagration stage and those in the upper levels are flash toasted, lower have their lungs... well let's just say they are in extreme pain and as the underpressure hits the job is done.
 
BTB MG that is why I am a huge proponent of FABs - they can "dug in" all they want. Nice heavy FAB goes off just over them all their O2 is used up in the FAB overpressure/conflagration stage and those in the upper levels are flash toasted, lower have their lungs... well let's just say they are in extreme pain and as the underpressure hits the job is done.

You are just not getting it. They are dug in under mountains. And if the few western reports the exist are to be believed - they have blast doors to stop exactly what you are predicting could happen
 
I tend to suspect any official source that makes basic errors like blitz klieg (lightning stage light) for blitzkreig (lightning war) or ignores training and vehicle fuel concerns.

I may not be a soldier, but as an actor, i have to say the concept of a lightning stage light scares the hell out of me. Directors are harsh enough as it is, last thing i need is a bunch of north korean hacks storming our cities and demanding " EMOTE EMOTE!" as they fire arcs of electricity at me from the lighting rigs.
 
You are just not getting it. They are dug in under mountains. And if the few western reports the exist are to be believed - they have blast doors to stop exactly what you are predicting could happen

They can't be dug in behind air-tight blast doors and firing artillery at the south at the same time. Nor do they have the luxury of knowing exactly when to do which. They can either hide and protect themselves, or try to pound the south with shells, they can't do both.
 
Come on. North Korea is Total GDP is 94th in the world and it's per capita 1900$. I doubt they could afford it. I was always under the impression that military movements are limited due to serious fuel shortages.

They have been continually stockpiling ever since Korean War armistice w/China's help of course. Also, I would not doubt the fact that they may have various forms of synthetic fuels also.


So what's the actual production?
? No one knows for sure except N.Korea I'm sure. Doesn't matter when China is their next door neighbor and can roll in tanks such as they did during Korean War (if you actually think China will let us totally defeat N.Korea and setup shop near their border then you are gravely mistaken)

200 battle tanks of the typical Soviet style will be fuel hogs.

Who said they haven't been modified or China wouldn't supply them w/supplies like they did in Korean War

I know folks that have died due to lousy hand fired mortar shells in Iraq. Well placed power arty will be tough

Perhaps. Hopefully they aren't as accurate when having to target areas that haven't been pre-targeted already.

I used to live in a small city called Kangneung on the Northern Eastern coast of Korea. The roads and routes in the northern areas of the South, close to the border, are rigged with road blocks and explosives. I'm not saying it's a huge problem but I imagine that bogging down collums long enough to have them taken out by our own arty or air power.

Yes. That is the plan for both sides most likely. N.Korean's were notorious for booby trapping even dead bodies.


Again, this would require huge amounts of fuel. It's clear the North doesn't have it.

Really!? Are you sure it isn't mostly underground?

I'm a tanker medic, I dig this. This is out of date and incorrect. I believe almost everything about the M1A is unclassified so without saying any specifically. I will state that the M1A is far superior and underrated here.

Isn't a lot of the stuff about the M1A2 classified though?


NKSF are no joke. Our boys aint no joke either.

Yes, combine that w/the fact that there are tons of die hard Patriots (like myself) who would join up and die for their country in a heart beat if another World War broke out (which a N.Korean conflict would start/seeing as how the Middle East regimes would most likely take the opportunity to strike if we had a major US conflict in Korea).


I'm pretty sure US missile counter measures would be up to the task.

I'm pretty sure the US missile counter measures are a little iffy.

Can anyone comment on US Carrier armament and defense?

Oh sure. It seems outdated diesel electric subs can go past carrier task forces undetected and actually get right next to our carriers. Here is a link of China testing this theory: THE UNINVITED GUEST


Aside from the technical capabilities, the author also seems ignorant of the heavy (and successful) use of tanks in urban combat in Iraq.

So Iraq has tons of mountains, forests, and winters that are sub zero temps along w/10 feet of snow on the ground? You comparing flat desert warfare to mountainous terrain w/extreme winters made me chuckle a bit.


Furthermore, the claim that NK would engage in dogfights with US and SK planes is... well, laughable, really.

Would China's stealth fighters getting involved make you laugh or poo your pants? Because they will.


SAMS might make close air support difficult, but NK planes won't be able to stay in the air very long. Their planes suck, and their pilots get little training because they can't afford the fuel or the risk of pilots defecting. There would be no dog fighting. They'd get shot down at long range.

China's don't suck

They forgot the Phalanx system. Plus, of course, NK doesn't have the kind of anti-carrier missiles Russia and China have been developing, those missiles are not battle-tested (so assuming a 100% success rate is stupid), and there's no evidence that they have the capability to coordinate such a massive simultaneous barrage either.

There is also no evidence taking out N.Korea would be easy either. There is also no evidence that China would not get involved again if Korea gets their butts handed to em.

I think in the entire essay fuel limitations are left out of the equation. And it's not just tanks or infantry, it's support, medical, logistics, command, etc.

It is heavy speculation


Even if the entire budget went to fuel an all out Total War I think they'd peter out a weak assault in a few weeks at most.

China would step in before they fall. Perhaps even Russia. China, Japan, and Russia have been having islands disputes amongst themselves and Russia will do whatever it takes to keep China on their good side.

U.S. Supports Japan, Confronts China And Russia Over Island Disputes Only chose this link because of time issues and the article being pretty thorough. I am a heavy supporter of NATO

Iraq had all these wapons and more. Look what happened to them.

Yeah they really did not use them the 2nd time. Because Iraqi military is a joke.


I think the best defense is stay out of the 60km range of the N. Korean missiles, yes? I don't see why a US carrier group would have to be any closer than 200km to N. Korea in a conflict.

Doesn't matter either way when you throw electric diesel submarines into the matter.


North Korea has one thing Iraq never did - terrain
And China


And Iraq had one thing North Korea doesn't: fuel.
And flat terrain and Iraq was also hoping (the 2nd time we were there) that some international organization would negotiate us to not fully take em out. Boy was Saddam wrong. Also, they moved all their WMDs to Syria and Iran to make a fool out of Bush.


North Korea's threat has always been the artillery they already have in place, aimed at civilian population centers. They have lots of it, too much for us to take out before they can lob a lot of ammunition at those cities. So they can kill lots of people. But they will lose in the process, and lose badly. Their military is poorly trained. They have no air power to speak of. Their infrastructure is crap, and won't survive our airstrikes. They're low on fuel, they're low on food, and once the fighting starts they won't be able to move what little they have. They'll be paralyzed. That is why they put so much effort into placing that artillery on location, because it's the only way to make their threat credible. What they are counting on is that the US and South Korea don't want to win badly enough to risk the casualties. And that is true. That is why we haven't smacked them around harder already. Of course, even with that sort of threat, there's still a limit to how hard they can push South Korea. If war ever starts, it will be a bloody business, but the victor is already quite certain: South Korea will wipe the floor with North Korea.

Really? Are you so sure China would allow this? N.Korea is China's buffer zone.


And when virtually your entire force is based on dug in defense and you have spent 50 years digging in. You dont need a lot of fuel

Well they have had 50years to not only stockpile but research synthetics also.


You have to mobilize soldiers to those dug-in positions. You have to extract the wounded. You have to truck in supplies. You have to move people around as necessary.

They have those assets in place already. N.Korea has been at the ready since the armistice (hint: Korean War never really ended)


You may recall that one of Germany's biggest problems fending off the Allied invasion was lack of fuel, despite being dug in and playing defense.

Comparing N.Korea to Germany is laughable.

Even if they did I doubt N Korea would be able to find them. I doubt they could maintain a communications network past the first few hours let alone a radar network. A radar station is basically a big "kill me" sign for cruise missiles.

China has satellites.


you presume that favors N Korea. In fact with their communication systems gone this terrain serves to isolate N Korean units to where they could be destroyed easily.

Supposedly, but only if China does not step in. Also, Al-Queda is isolated in mountains in Pakistan and they are a continual nusciance.


The N Korean battle plan is likely to give their artillery whatever rounds they can and tell them to fire it in the direction of Soul as quickly as possible in order to inflict civilian casualties.

Who knows what their actual plan is. They have severely crazy men leading their regime.


To face armageddon. It is what what the military, the state live for. The South in partner with the US to attack. So they can justify the last 50 years of their existence and prove all they have said about the US and its bully tactics are true

Bully tactics!?


Then they die. They know that. Their hope is to make each of their deaths as expensive as possible

My grandpa was stationed as platoon commander behind enemy lines in Korea (and he's alive still today), and he told me sometimes they had to fend of N.Korean suicide waves. Most of the N.Korean suicide attacks had primitive weps such as machetes and such. He said when they would check the bodies they found lil bags of cocaine on a lot of them. The Koreans called it "bravery powder" or some kind of nonsense. It was destroyed to prevent US troops from being attics (most G.I.s where alcoholics already because during the winter only alcohol wouldn't freeze)


If you want to compare the North Korean defenses to those in France pre WW1 you need to do a lot more reading

Or realize that it is 2011.


So they are not going to march to the front till the war starts :eek: between 60% and 70% of North Korea's military assets are already within 5 miles of the DMZ

Yep


From where - and why are they moving it now. They built the stockpile bunkers 30 years ago. Why do you think the country is starving. The military takes all supluses and moves it to the front now. The NK are not going to wait to react. They reacted 50 years ago, they are just waiting for the South to make the move


I think they could be waiting for the mid East to heat up again
 
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A REASON WHY N.KOREA ATTACKED ON NOV.23rd

I actually bought this issue of the mag after the Nov.23rd attacks.

If Kim Jong Ill saw/read this article it could explain why he did what he did. This issue came out Nov.22

God of All Things

To sum up the article it is a kind of "woe is me" from Obama talking about how he has so many things on his plate. Kim gave him 1 more thing to worry about the VERY next day

I understand politcal sattire (does Kim Jong Ill?)

but honestly...why pose Obama as Sheeva the Goddess of death?
 
So Iraq has tons of mountains, forests, and winters that are sub zero temps along w/10 feet of snow on the ground? You comparing flat desert warfare to mountainous terrain w/extreme winters made me chuckle a bit.

Urban warfare is not desert warfare. And it's not flat either. Furthermore, any impediments to OUR movements are going to be even larger impediments to NK movement, since they won't have air superiority.

Would China's stealth fighters getting involved make you laugh or poo your pants? Because they will.

Well, since the plane has yet to make a test flight, at this point it would make me laugh. Give it a decade and maybe I'll care, but you're assuming that China would send their fighters in. That's not a given.

China's don't suck

You're right: they're second rate, not fourth rate.

There is also no evidence taking out N.Korea would be easy either.

Actually, there is. Their infrastructure is crap, air strikes would make short work of their road and rail networks, and the very terrain you claim will work against us also means that they'll be paralyzed once these networks are hit. They're also perpetually low on food and fuel. No army wins under those conditions.

There is also no evidence that China would not get involved again if Korea gets their butts handed to em.

Actually there is.

China would step in before they fall.

Why would they? They already have a promise from South Korea that no US troops would be stationed north of the DMZ if reunification ever happens, WE have no interest in basing more troops there, and if war ever happens, the number 1 concern of China is going to be to prevent a flood of refugees into China. If China ever comes to blows with the US, it's not going to be over North Korea, it'll be over Taiwan. Worst-case scenario for us in this regard is that China uses a war with North Korea as an opportunity to strike at Taiwan while we're engaged elsewhere. In which case, Taiwan might be screwed, but China isn't going to rescue North Korea. They aren't worth the trouble.

If we launch an unprovoked attack against North Korea, that might frighten the Chinese enough to consider stepping in. But if war starts as a response to something that the north does, why would China step in? Their client state is a perpetual headache. The war would be sufficiently costly for us as is. China comes out ahead of us if they don't spend a dime getting involved and let us fight and clean up the mess.

Perhaps even Russia.

You have GOT to be kidding me. Russia has no reason to stick out their necks for North Korea.

China, Japan, and Russia have been having islands disputes amongst themselves and Russia will do whatever it takes to keep China on their good side.

Those little islands aren't worth that kind of trouble.

Really? Are you so sure China would allow this? N.Korea is China's buffer zone.

And it would remain a buffer zone. South Korea has already promised no US troops stationed north of the DMZ. And the north is such a complete mess that South Korea would be struggling to clean up the mess for decades. In fact, if you really want to hobble South Korea, making them clean up North Korea is about the best thing you could do.

Well they have had 50years to not only stockpile but research synthetics also.

And we all know North Korean scientists are top-notch.

Synthetic fuels are not a source of energy. They are a way of changing existing energy from one form into another, and always involve inefficiencies. North Korea has a general fuel shortage of pretty much every kind. The ability to turn one kind of fuel into another kind of fuel is of no use when you don't even have enough of the first kind of fuel.

Comparing N.Korea to Germany is laughable.

Indeed: the Germans had food.

China has satellites.

Which the North Korean military is not set up to use, because they are Chinese satellites, not North Korean satellites.

Supposedly, but only if China does not step in.

Chinese involvement won't fix North Korean communications.

Also, Al-Queda is isolated in mountains in Pakistan and they are a continual nusciance.

That's rather the point: they're in Pakistan. Where we aren't.

And if you think that China is going to play the part of Pakistan, you're deluding yourself. Unlike Pakistan, China tries to exert tight control over their border with North Korea. They don't WANT people coming and going freely. If war happens, they'll keep that border closed, because they don't want North Korean refugees flooding China.

It was destroyed to prevent US troops from being attics

It's horrible when a person gets turned into the space between the roof and the ceiling of a house. :D
 
The "study" from the OP has been kicking around for almost a decade, now. I'd venture to guess that it's a disinformation piece penned by someone from South Korea or even our own folks in South Korea. From what I can find, the "Center" doesn't seem to exist, and the Korean author exists only in reference to this article.

I agree that it's a propaganda piece, but whose?
 
The "study" from the OP has been kicking around for almost a decade, now. I'd venture to guess that it's a disinformation piece penned by someone from South Korea or even our own folks in South Korea. From what I can find, the "Center" doesn't seem to exist, and the Korean author exists only in reference to this article.

I agree that it's a propaganda piece, but whose?

Its definately (in parts at least) North Korean. The story of the intercept of the US spy plane has been standard propaganda up there for a while. A version of it used to be on the North Korean news site - Will have to go in and see if I can find it for you
 
The above arguments are forgetting the biological and chemical weaponry the North have and are willing to use. They've finely tuned said weapons in their Human Rights free prison camps full of guinea pigs. It doesn't cost a whole pile to send a balloon full of various viruses or gas into an enemy city. The same goes for a cargo container in a ship or a piece of weaponized mail.
 
Quad: I'm not sure how much I should mention but the TUSK system alone seems to negate any threat I can think of. The only Armor I rode in combat was the M1A2 SEP with TUSK. The optics and the kind of magic MG could whip up...

Most of the tankers would have welcomed Armor on Armor combat rather then 'ride, blow up, boom boom' type of counter IED missions we were running.

Terrain? Rugged? How about the mountains near Fort Irwin CA? Germany's Armor Division? Deployment ready FORSCOM units cycle through training environments like that several times a year.

The majority of the obstacles I have personally seen near the border would not pose a major challenge to most modern American Vehicles except the MRAP.

? No one knows for sure except N.Korea I'm sure. Doesn't matter when China is their next door neighbor and can roll in tanks such as they did during Korean War (if you actually think China will let us totally defeat N.Korea and setup shop near their border then you are gravely mistaken)

I don't know. I reckon China's liking the cash being made by making all our cheap plastic crap more than some old political allegiance. I don't think China will stick it's neck out for NK anytime soon. Last time I was in China was before the Olympics and everything is moving toward a market economy anyway.

Yes, combine that w/the fact that there are tons of die hard Patriots (like myself) who would join up and die for their country in a heart beat if another World War broke out (which a N.Korean conflict would start/seeing as how the Middle East regimes would most likely take the opportunity to strike if we had a major US conflict in Korea).

Well... I certainly don't think I would have ever joined in peacetime.

If somehow the War were here... Then those not fighting are treasonous.

I'm pretty sure the US missile counter measures are a little iffy.

Oh? What makes you so sure?
 
Discussing the superiority of the USA's equipment, training, numbers, and logistics ignores the political circumstances in which such a conflict would happen. Taking those into account, it gets much easier for the result to be one that makes the USA unhappy and the North Korean government happy.

Because NK can't attack the USA, the only way for such a war to happen is if American forces go to North Korea, which already immediately puts them in the position of being painted as invaders regardless of what NK might have done before that to cause them to go. Then there is the American tendency in the last few decades to under-commit, holding back and trying to get by with less use of power and destructiveness than the assigned task requires, and the American lack of tolerance for taking even a small amount of damage/harm. Add it all together and you get a relatively high probability of the USA sending some forces, taking a few losses, sprouting a huge anti-war outcry internally, and then having its military forces in the area just mush around for a while instead of really engaging the enemy, until a way can be found to back out... which will be called invasion, failure, defeat, and retreat, both by many Americans and by everyone else.

Politics will make a big difference not just in socio-psychological things like perception and propaganda and the will to fight, but also in what equipment the enemy will be fighting with and how much, because there's a pretty good chance of Chinese and/or Russian involvement in one form or another. And those countries have not only larger military forces than NK but also more advanced, closer to a match with American gear, and they wouldn't have anything near the length of "supply line" that the Americans would. (And at least for fighter planes, this brings in the issue of when the fighting happens. If it's within the next few years, our F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, and Harriers would be up against various recent Mig, Sukhoi, and Chendu jets that are as good as them or better; after that, our nearby Air Force bases get F-22s and F-35As, our aircraft carriers get F-35Cs, and our Marine bases and amphibious assault ships get F-35Bs, which puts the issue of air power back on our side.) Even if the USA could beat one of those bigger Asian countries in Asia, it simply lacks the will to put out the WWII-like commitment it would take, so if either of them got involved and chose to push back hard enough (which is another matter of will on their part), American withdrawal (retreat) would be virtually guaranteed.

* * *

I trust that American and allied bases in the area have defenses against NK's promised bombardment already up and running. But do South Korea's civilian population centers?
 
Then there is the American tendency in the last few decades to under-commit, holding back and trying to get by with less use of power and destructiveness than the assigned task requires, and the American lack of tolerance for taking even a small amount of damage/harm.

I don't think that a war with North Korea would really play out the same way. And the reason is that the bulk of the fighting isn't going to be done by the US, but by South Korea. If there is a war (and not just a little bit of fire exchange), South Korea is going to get hit, and hard. They're going to take a fair amount of damage. They can't avoid it. But the worst of it will be at the start. After that, they'll want revenge. They won't accept another cease fire, not when North Korea will have already done the worst it can do. They'll want payback, and they won't tolerate giving North Korea the opportunity to rearm for another massive bombardment in a few decades, which is exactly what any form of survival for the North Korean regime would mean to them. If war starts, then the destruction of the North Korean regime will be the ONLY acceptable outcome to the South Koreans. And the truth of the matter is that they could accomplish that without our help. But our help would make it easier, and quicker.

Yes, the US public frequently has little interest in high-risk warfare. But aside from the troops already stationed in South Korea, who along with the South Koreans will face the worst of it at the beginning of the conflict, our involvement would primarily be precisely the sort of stand-off, high-tech "bloodless" war that we prefer. We'll be pounding them from the sky while South Korean boots do the messy stuff.
 
They have been continually stockpiling ever since Korean War armistice w/China's help of course. Also, I would not doubt the fact that they may have various forms of synthetic fuels also.



? No one knows for sure except N.Korea I'm sure. Doesn't matter when China is their next door neighbor and can roll in tanks such as they did during Korean War (if you actually think China will let us totally defeat N.Korea and setup shop near their border then you are gravely mistaken)



Who said they haven't been modified or China wouldn't supply them w/supplies like they did in Korean War







Oh sure. It seems outdated diesel electric subs can go past carrier task forces undetected and actually get right next to our carriers. Here is a link of China testing this theory:



Would China's stealth fighters getting involved make you laugh or poo your pants? Because they will.




China's don't suck



There is also no evidence taking out N.Korea would be easy either. There is also no evidence that China would not get involved again if Korea gets their butts handed to em.





China would step in before they fall. Perhaps even Russia. China, Japan, and Russia have been having islands disputes amongst themselves and Russia will do whatever it takes to keep China on their good side.

U.S. Supports Japan, Confronts China And Russia Over Island Disputes Only chose this link because of time issues and the article being pretty thorough. I am a heavy supporter of NATO



And China


Really? Are you so sure China would allow this? N.Korea is China's buffer zone.


China has satellites.




Supposedly, but only if China does not step in. Also, Al-Queda is isolated in mountains in Pakistan and they are a continual nusciance.

We get it. China
 
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