North Korea/South Korea

[jimbob]

Oh...Really?

Have you ever considered how thoroughly the American Public has been programmed? Have you ever considered that you may be programmed - and that your opinions and political views are just bias' implanted in your mind through repitition and intellectual isolation (i.e., starvation of other ideas)?

If you are in any way attempting to equivocate the US and the DPRK then you need to recalibrate your analyses.

The Democrats and Republicans have rather different policy aims - especially at the moment with the headbangers gaining the ascendancy in the GOP. There is a genuine political choice in the US.

Your faux-cynicism is utterly useless - unless your posts are a very good Poe, in which case I congratulate you.

 

[Segnosaur]

The Marines and associated forces "retreated" in an organized fashion, despite being fully surrounded and with little resupply. They didn't run away from the battle, they fought their way through it, recapturing roads, building bridges, and destroying 40% of the Chinese forces in Korea in the process.

Read up a bit, perhaps. Battle of Chosin Reservoir.

Sounds like a Fairy Story.

And why do you say that?

The other poster provided a reference to a wikipedia article. (While wikipedia may not be a perfect source, its relatively decent when dealing with historical events.) The article points out the fact that, despite having a 4-1 advantage in available troops, the chinese lost roughly twice as many men. Sounds like his analysis is pretty reasonable. (I doubt you rack up higher casualties on your enemies by just "running away".)

 

[Jules Galen]

And why do you say that?

The other poster provided a reference to a wikipedia article. (While wikipedia may not be a perfect source, its relatively decent when dealing with historical events.) The article points out the fact that, despite having a 4-1 advantage in available troops, the chinese lost roughly twice as many men. Sounds like his analysis is pretty reasonable. (I doubt you rack up higher casualties on your enemies by just "running away".)

Hey...it's hard to believe for many, but the military (the ultimate source of the material) has no problem about lying when it comes to success and body counts.

 

[Jules Galen]

If you are in any way attempting to equivocate the US and the DPRK then you need to recalibrate your analyses.

The Democrats and Republicans have rather different policy aims - especially at the moment with the headbangers gaining the ascendancy in the GOP. There is a genuine political choice in the US.
Your faux-cynicism is utterly useless - unless your posts are a very good Poe, in which case I congratulate you.

My Gawd! I get to choose? I mean, I have a choice between the war-mongering, political party that favors the interest of the rich as oppossed to....the other war-mongering, political party that favors the interest of the rich?

My gawd, this freedom of choice makes me feel so...embiggened!

 

[Segnosaur]

Re: Battle of Chosin...
Hey...it's hard to believe for many, but the military (the ultimate source of the material) has no problem about lying when it comes to success and body counts.

Yet the Chinese (you know, the people who would be doing everything they could to make themselves look good) also pointed out to far more casualties on the chinese side than the American (and British) side.

Why would the chinese be lying to make themselves look bad?

 

[angrysoba]

Hey...it's hard to believe for many, but the military (the ultimate source of the material) has no problem about lying when it comes to success and body counts.

Yes, the military on both sides.

ETA: that is to say, as above, that the military on both sides agree broadly on the numbers killed.

 

[Jules Galen]

Well...let's see. As a result of the battle of Chosin (and other sumultaneous battles), the Truman Administration despaired of its plan to unify the Koreas by force and the Chinese removed the UN Forces from North Korea.

It was a disaster.

 

[Segnosaur]

Well...let's see. As a result of the battle of Chosin (and other sumultaneous battles), the Truman Administration despaired of its plan to unify the Koreas by force and the Chinese removed the UN Forces from North Korea.

It was a disaster.

Your claim was that "the Marines ran from the battlefield". This has been well and truly debunked. They did not 'run'. And loosing a battle when you're outnumbered 4:1 and still manage to kill more of the enemy isn't exactly a disaster.

The US/UN did fail to unify Korea, but given the number of soldiers China was willing to throw into the fray, changing plans was a logical decision, not the "disaster" you claim it to be.

 

[crescent]

Your claim was that "the Marines ran from the battlefield". This has been well and truly debunked. They did not 'run'. And loosing a battle when you're outnumbered 4:1 and still manage to kill more of the enemy isn't exactly a disaster.

The US/UN did fail to unify Korea, but given the number of soldiers China was willing to throw into the fray, changing plans was a logical decision, not the "disaster" you claim it to be.

Don't bother. Jules is too programmed to ever see anything positive about the U.S.

Someday, maybe he can overcome his programming. Not today.

 

[angrysoba]

Don't bother. Jules is too programmed to ever see anything positive about the U.S.

Someday, maybe he can overcome his programming. Not today.

Jules is aware of the process.

Oh...Really?

Have you ever considered how thoroughly the American Public has been programmed? Have you ever considered that you may be programmed - and that your opinions and political views are just bias' implanted in your mind through repitition and intellectual isolation (i.e., starvation of other ideas)?

His opinions and political views are just biases implanted in his mind through repetition and intellectual isolation.

So the poor dear is to be pitied rather than mocked.

 

[Jules Galen]

Your claim was that "the Marines ran from the battlefield". This has been well and truly debunked. They did not 'run'. And loosing a battle when you're outnumbered 4:1 and still manage to kill more of the enemy isn't exactly a disaster.

The US/UN did fail to unify Korea, but given the number of soldiers China was willing to throw into the fray, changing plans was a logical decision, not the "disaster" you claim it to be.

So...you are saying the US lost?

 

[Delvo]

The initial purchase will only be for 40 planes. Even if you do fly them all simultaneously, that's enough for 80 big bombs or 320 small ones.. So a stealth attack from SK without help would significantly reduce what the guns could do before it was over, but not eliminate it.

That was counting only internal carriage for maximum stealth, but the plane is still much stealthier even while carrying some externally than any non-stealth plane ever is... Depending on the acceptability of external carriage, and on how many targets you can get with a small-diameter bomb instead of a bigger one, some combinations exist which would make it possible for 40 future F-35s from SK to hit all 700 NK guns from the air practically simultaneously in a single wave

And right after I posted about the original 40, someone at another forum posted the news that they're apparently also likely to add another 20. That increases the total number of hardpoints from 240 (80 internal and 160 external) to 360 (120 internal and 240 external), each one capable of carrying either one big bomb or a four-pack of Small-Diameter Bombs. That still isn't enough to hit 700 targets at once with only internal weapons, not even with all SDBs, but it certainly reduces the need for external carriage, and increases the number of targets they can hit with a big bomb instead of a little one if necessary. Same general idea as with fewer planes, just easier and with more options; it looks like SK is preparing for exactly this kind of strike.

 

[Segnosaur]

So...you are saying the US lost?

Uhh... no. Not sure where you're getting that from.

The Korean war was a stalemate. Its pretty common knowledge. Neither side can claim victory, neither side was defeated. The primary goal of preventing the takeover of South Korea was accomplished. Any goal to completely defeat the North wasn't accomplished. But that's not a loss. Its a stalemate.

 

[crescent]

It is my understanding that both sides had conflicting goals in Korea.

NK wanted to unify with SK by force. So NK lost, by that definition.

China wanted to salvage NK, but did not see over-running SK as much of a goal. China achieved success in keeping NK from total defeat, so China could be said to have won.

SK wanted to remain independent, so they could be said to have won.

The U.S. was conflicted. President Truman was content to keep SK independent but had no desire to over-run NK. General MacArthur wanted to over-run NK and keep running through into China to overthrow the Communists, who had only been in power for less than a year and still didn't have full control of Tibet or Xinjiang. MacArthur had no love for Chiang Kai-sheck, I don't know what he would have done if he did defeat the communists. He also wanted to use atomic bombs against China.

Truman has been looked upon favorably by historians, but was pretty unpopular in 1950. MacArthur has been looked upon with mixed feeling by historians, but was very popular in 1950.

So MacArthur used his popularity to pressure Truman to allow UN forces to move right up to the Chinese border, despite warnings from China and Russia not to do so. Truman worried that China or Russia would intervene, but MacArthur felt otherwise and pressured Truman into allowing a strategy (total defeat of NK) that Truman didn't like.

When China and Russia intervened, MacArthur was discredited and forced back into retirement. The U.S. reverted to Truman's preferred strategy, which was to hold SK but not all of Korea.

MacArthur's strategy was defeated. Truman's was not.

Call it what you will, it is more of a semantic argument than anything meaningful.

 

[McHrozni]

The USA has failed to take down a whole host of countries and their political systems to be able to reasonably claim NK would be not "too much hassle".

It wouldn't be too much of a hassle compared to what comes on the morning after, that's for sure.

McHrozni