• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

North Korea/South Korea

It really depends on the target you pick. If it's a system of heavily entrenched guns pointing at a city of over 20 million people different principles apply than if the target is a ammunition depot surrounded by kindergartens (Hamas style).

If you can't understand the distinction instantly it would probably be better you refrained from commenting on these matters until you do.

McHrozni
His post is fractally wrong, starting with his misattribution, and ending with his misunderstanding of FABs used against artillery bunkers as area-effect weapons rather than the precision weapons they really are.
 
There are a lot of people who leave North Korea because they are starving and have to earn a living somehow. They often go to China, get jobs and work in Korean restaurants there, then make regular trips back over the border with food for their families.

Some people also leave because they fear for their lives because they believe they could get into trouble with local authorities, but many of them believe that if the Great Leader, Dear Leader or the Little Chubby One found out their plight, they would intervene.

There have also been a few high level defections which involve a higher number of openly critical figures, and there are a number of refugees who were never taken in, but for many the programming does seem to stick.


Oh...Really?

Have you ever considered how thoroughly the American Public has been programmed? Have you ever considered that you may be programmed - and that your opinions and political views are just bias' implanted in your mind through repitition and intellectual isolation (i.e., starvation of other ideas)?
 
Based on classified information I've seen over the years I'd guess that every military target in North Korea larger than a dinner plate already has ten-digit grid coordinates.
 
Obviously, surprise is important.

In this instance, stealth is not needed for surprise. We fly non-stealth aircraft all the time near the NK/SK border, that's probably pretty routine. The artillery pieces in question are all near the border.

The "Surprise!" comes when those planes actually start attacking. From the time they deviate away from more routine flight paths to the time they are in position to release ordinance might be a matter of a minute or less. It is my understanding that JDAMs and many other gravity bombs can be dropped some number of miles from the target - many of the NK border artillery sites could be hit with gravity bombs dropped by aircraft that never even enter NK airspace.

Plus, as others have said, SK already knows the locations of many of the sites. They probably have short and medium range missiles targeting sites already. If SK/US launched a pre-preemptive attach, much of it would be done by ground-launched missiles rather than crewed aircraft.
 
It seems like things have been escalating for some time. But this is the first time I heard the same kind of rhetoric from South Korea. In fact, it's almost the same thing NK said, about "reducing the country to ashes".
This is the only place I've heard of this. What prompted it, and what else was said along with it?

I tend to think China would not tolerate an occupation of N.K. by anyone other than China.
At the time of the Korean War, they certainly didn't want what we now call South Korea to have the whole peninsula, but I'm not convinced they'd mind today. The "enemy on our border" principle doesn't apply because they know Korea wouldn't attack and China would win if it tried anyway, and the days of trying to spread Communism over the whole world are over.

The Korean War is still remembered with great pride in China.
How? They were on the side that was doing the attacking and trying to conquer the entire peninsula, and they didn't succeed; South Korea exists.

So if a shooting war started, I would expect China would come in from the north much faster than the U.S. or S.K could come up from the south.

ETA: Not to defend N.K., but to decapitate it themselves and replace the current regime with a more sane, but still pro-China regime.
That, like an American air strike on the artillery and missile sites, would not require invasion.

1) North Korea honchos are not exactly living in a palace where they can be take off easily.
Some are. We might no know the addresses of the entire officer corps, especially with their "turnover" rate, but their homes aren't the places where we'd want to get them anyway (except maybe Kim). And the locations of military facilities, even those that aren't in palaces, are known.

And the military infrastructure of North Korea is quite extensive and well protected so in order to take everything off the US would need to find a number of bases around NK and be prepared for a long aerial campaign.
You seem to be thinking of an invasion. An invasion is not necessary just to keep SK safe. All that would be needed for that is handling the artillery that can shoot at Seoul, and then stopping any counter-invasion that might come from NK after that, not necessarily invading NK.

2) An attack to NK would require the OK from the UNSC which would be blocked by China. So the US could still go ahead and do it but it would be an act of aggression. The United States, especially after the disaster in Iraq, can not afford to be seen as an aggressor by the international community as an aggressor again
A. No, there are several legalistic reasons why the UN's standards are already met in this case: the war never technically ended, NK recently re-declared it anyway and has repeatedly threatened us and our allies, it would be a large air strike exclusively at their weapons not an invasion, we'd be doing it at the request of the local ally for the sake of that ally's self-defense.

B. Why can't the USA afford to continue living with what it's already lived with all along for years? The UN is already a forum for a bunch of warlords and terrorists to sit around ranting about how evil the USA and Israel are and applauding each other for how much bombast and bluster they can throw in while saying it. They already call it an act of aggression any time an American eats a defenseless apple, or sneezes, or ties his/her shoes, or takes a nap. What effect has this had on the USA? We know they spout this stuff about us all the time; the constant buzz of these accusations is just part of the background of life for an American who bothers to pay any attention to it at all, which many don't even feel any reason to do in the first place, nevermind worrying about what any of the constant international harassment is going to actually somehow do to us. We just keep happily exporting our surplus food to them and bailing them out from their own natural disasters and not-at-all-aggressive-because-only-Americans-are-aggressive wars.

China` s military is quickly improving and they have a military budget now about half that of the US. A large number of domestically manufactured planes, aircraft carriers, destroyers and one of the largest in the world arsenals of nuclear weapons in the world... it is impossible for them to force North Korea to surrender, considering that China would almost surely support
Good reasons not to try to invade China or a Chinese ally... which is part of why nobody's seriously considering doing so.

Considering that the United States could not force militarly Iran to abandon their nuclear program...
Your English is mostly pretty good, but it failed you in this sentence. The phrase "force ___ to..." does not apply to situations in which no use of force was tried.

(Also, it's "attack on" or "attack against", not "attack to". Without that one particular phrase, I might not even have been aware that English isn't your native language.)

4) An attack to NK by the US would start a confrontation with the no. 1 economy of the world, China, which is growing at 7%. The US can not win the battle
The USA's economy could withstand the strain of war better than China's could, because China's "growth" is simply the world's biggest bubble waiting to pop. There are other reasons why a war against China in Asia would be a big problem for the USA, not that one. The real issue is that China's ground army is huge (close to the size of the USA's entire population) and wouldn't need to travel very far.

In the last 5 years:
1) the US has failed to end Iran nuclear program. Remember that the original goal of US and Israel was to have NO nuclear program in Iran, then it became OK nuclear program but NO enrichment
2) the US has failed to bring Iraq under their side
Now Iraq is going under Iran
3) the US has failed to contain Russia on Crimea
These are situations in which no military action was even tried, so they do not illustrate military abilities.

4) the US has been passed as 1st economy
Also not exactly a military issue, at least not an important enough one to counter/outweigh the others.
0
5) China is now the major economy partner of all ex US allies
What are these "ex US allies"?

Considering that the US, at the peak of their power, lost to North Vietnam + China, it is utterly impossible for them to win in 2016 to NK + China
Even if I give you the idea of Vietnam as a "loss" (which is disputable), or the idea of the USA being at a "peak" back then (which is just false), all it would mean is that the USA wouldn't be able to defeat China in an invasion on Asian land which China chose to resist. But nobody's seriously considering trying that anyway.

Or else rely on means other than high precision bombs to take out those positions. It depends on how hardened the bunkers are, but dropping a couple dozen (hundred?) fuel-air bombs has a good chance of neutralizing the crews at least. The guns can then be taken out at a much less frantic pace.

I'm sure ROK armed forces have at least two distinct plans to take those guns out before they flatten their capital that also happens to be their largest population center by far and a cornerstone of their economy.
Even if some of the targets are clustered close enough for that kind of bomb to be useful, SK doesn't have those bombs, or planes with which to deliver them.
 
Last edited:
Oh...Really?

Have you ever considered how thoroughly the American Public has been programmed? Have you ever considered that you may be programmed - and that your opinions and political views are just bias' implanted in your mind through repitition and intellectual isolation (i.e., starvation of other ideas)?

Maybe. And if so, what of it? It only bolsters what I said rather than contradict it.
 
North Korea fight back? With what?

The annual South Korean Military Budget (est $35.7 Billion nominal) is more than twice as great as the entire Gross Domestic Product of North Korea (est $15.4 Billion nominal).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Korea_Armed_Forces

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#Military

The premise that North Korea would go to war with any other country is laughable.

you consider the largest army in the world (5-6x as big as the entire US army) laughable?
I don't get your sense of humor.
 
How? They were on the side that was doing the attacking and trying to conquer the entire peninsula, and they didn't succeed; South Korea exists.

That's not how China remembers it. As far as they are concerned, they intervened in a civil war when it was clear that their ally was about to be wiped from the map. Their intervention prevented it happening and kept the proud bastion of freedom that is North Korea free of US occupation.

Actually, as far as I can recall, Mao thought Kim Il-sung's invasion was a bad idea and didn't support North Korea initially. It was only later on in the war that Chinese troops crossed the Yalu River.
 
That's not how China remembers it. As far as they are concerned, they intervened in a civil war when it was clear that their ally was about to be wiped from the map. Their intervention prevented it happening and kept the proud bastion of freedom that is North Korea free of US occupation.

Actually, as far as I can recall, Mao thought Kim Il-sung's invasion was a bad idea and didn't support North Korea initially. It was only later on in the war that Chinese troops crossed the Yalu River.

The Chinese remember that they went toe-to-toe with the U.S. Marine Corps at Chosin Reservoir, barely a year after the Communist victory over the Nationalists - and the Marines retreated with heavy casualties. Oddly enough, that battle holds great pride in both U.S. Marine Corps and in PLA lore. The Chinese took much heavier casualties than the Marines and failed to prevent the Marines and other U.S./U.N. military until from being evacuated, but that does not always impact national pride.

They remember that after years of humiliation by foreign powers (the Opium Wars, Boxer Rebellion, War with Japan), they went up against the most powerful nation in the world and fought it to a stalemate. It does not need to be an outright victory to be remembered with pride. At the end of fighting, North Korea still existed thanks to the Chinese intervention. That's how they view it.
 
Last edited:
That's the biggest issue. North Korean army and political system could reasonably be brought down without too much hassle, assuming a full scale commitment of ROK and US armed forces. What happens afterwards is the real problem.

Imagine Iraq, but with far worse infrastructure, a populace that is potentially far more resistive and much more difficult terrain. It wouldn't be pretty.

McHrozni

The USA has failed to take down a whole host of countries and their political systems to be able to reasonably claim NK would be not "too much hassle".
 
NK can not be 'brought' down, only contained by destroying all long-range weapons.
But not even with SK, the US and China could NK be invaded and held if the leadership decided to make this a battle to the end.
 
If you can't understand the distinction instantly it would probably be better you refrained from commenting on these matters until you do.
I've told you plainly that this kind of misdirection doesn't work. If you can't understand that instantly, well dear me, I don't know what the world's coming to.
 
The Chinese remember that they went toe-to-toe with the U.S. Marine Corps at Chosin Reservoir, barely a year after the Communist victory over the Nationalists - and the Marines retreated with heavy casualties. Oddly enough, that battle holds great pride in both U.S. Marine Corps and in PLA lore. The Chinese took much heavier casualties than the Marines and failed to prevent the Marines and other U.S./U.N. military until from being evacuated, but that does not always impact national pride.

They remember that after years of humiliation by foreign powers (the Opium Wars, Boxer Rebellion, War with Japan), they went up against the most powerful nation in the world and fought it to a stalemate. It does not need to be an outright victory to be remembered with pride. At the end of fighting, North Korea still existed thanks to the Chinese intervention. That's how they view it.

Indeed. Interestingly, the North Koreans themselves leave the Chinese out of the narrative almost completely. They tend to give some credence to some help they received from the Soviet Union, but otherwise they give the impression they won the war solo after being subject to a dastardly surprise attack by the Yankee imperialist aggressors and their lackeys.
 
you consider the largest army in the world (5-6x as big as the entire US army) laughable?
North Korea may have a large army in terms of soldiers in uniform/in reserve (although I'm not sure if 5/6x as big is accurate.) But, they are poorly equipped, much of their hardware is decades older than the U.S. or South Korean equivalents, and they probably don't have the resources to do much in the way of training (especially for pilots). There population is starving, and that includes their soldiers. And reports show their leadership is fairly rigid, which has had an effect on morale.

Many soldiers won't want to fight (given the low morale), and the ones who do will rely significantly on small arms. Perhaps that might be enough to cause significant casualties, perhaps not.

Of course, the North does have nuclear weapons, which can change the dynamics. But I assume we were talking about a conventional war rather than a nuclear exchange.
 
The Chinese remember that they went toe-to-toe with the U.S. Marine Corps at Chosin Reservoir, barely a year after the Communist victory over the Nationalists - and the Marines retreated with heavy casualties. Oddly enough, that battle holds great pride in both U.S. Marine Corps and in PLA lore. The Chinese took much heavier casualties than the Marines and failed to prevent the Marines and other U.S./U.N. military until from being evacuated, but that does not always impact national pride.

They remember that after years of humiliation by foreign powers (the Opium Wars, Boxer Rebellion, War with Japan), they went up against the most powerful nation in the world and fought it to a stalemate. It does not need to be an outright victory to be remembered with pride. At the end of fighting, North Korea still existed thanks to the Chinese intervention. That's how they view it.

If all that can be said of the battle of the Chosin Reservoir is that the Marines ran from the battlefield so fast that the Chinese didn't have time to kill them all, then I'd have to say that's a pretty solid victory by the Chinese.
 
In a few years they will have their own stealth fighters, so at least the first wave would be a total surprise, so the guns couldn't start firing until some of them were already gone. The initial purchase will only be for 40 planes. Even if you do fly them all simultaneously, that's enough for 80 big bombs or 320 small ones, so a second non-stealth wave would still be needed about an hour behind the first one to get all 700 guns. So a stealth attack from SK without help would significantly reduce what the guns could do before it was over, but not eliminate it.
That was counting only internal carriage for maximum stealth, but the plane is still much stealthier even while carrying some externally than any non-stealth plane ever is. I wonder how much they could carry externally without NK tracking them til it's too late. Depending on the acceptability of external carriage, and on how many targets you can get with a small-diameter bomb instead of a bigger one, some combinations exist which would make it possible for 40 future F-35s from SK to hit all 700 NK guns from the air practically simultaneously in a single wave, just like I said before about the USA with B-1s and B-2s (except that it would take roughly all of them instead of just about three sevenths of them).

We fly non-stealth aircraft all the time near the NK/SK border, that's probably pretty routine... The "Surprise!" comes when those planes actually start attacking.
Not this many at once. Flying enough at once to carry at least 700 bombs would definitely be conspicuous. It would even be a logistical strain on the bases they're taking off from and landing at, and diminish their ability to do routine flights for days before & after. And making the first strike with only as many planes as would normally be flying at a time would just be like putting up a sign at the border telling them to start firing now.

as others have said, SK already knows the locations of many of the sites. They probably have short and medium range missiles targeting sites already.
The SK army seems to have no such missiles.
 
If all that can be said of the battle of the Chosin Reservoir is that the Marines ran from the battlefield so fast that the Chinese didn't have time to kill them all, then I'd have to say that's a pretty solid victory by the Chinese.

Any excuse to be Anti-American?

The Marines and associated forces "retreated" in an organized fashion, despite being fully surrounded and with little resupply. They didn't run away from the battle, they fought their way through it, recapturing roads, building bridges, and destroying 40% of the Chinese forces in Korea in the process.

Read up a bit, perhaps. Battle of Chosin Reservoir.
 
Any excuse to be Anti-American?
The Marines and associated forces "retreated" in an organized fashion, despite being fully surrounded and with little resupply. They didn't run away from the battle, they fought their way through it, recapturing roads, building bridges, and destroying 40% of the Chinese forces in Korea in the process.
Read up a bit, perhaps. Battle of Chosin Reservoir.


Sounds like a Fairy Story.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom