Norad-Tapes around 10:07: "terminate all exercise inputs"

[jammonius]

See people, this is why I don't bother any more. This thread is filled wall-to-wall with displays of a gross refusal to engage brain matter.

Why waste what precious little time one has on this earth bashing one's proverbial head against a proverbial brick wall?

Gumboot, is it your claim that you are smarter than are either other posters or those posters who disagree with you? If so, what interest are you seeking to advance by making the claim that you are smart and others are not?

See, earlier, my statement that the exercise had not started, and was not scheduled to start until 0900. There's ample evidence of this. Aside from statements in interviews from NORAD staff, there's the evidence from the tapes themselves - the Ops Floor was in "standby" mode at the time of the first hijacking. The MCC wasn't even there, and had to be paged (along with most of the other Ops staff). This is clear in the audio tapes.

I do wish you would consider sourcing your claims concerning timing. They are not at all persuasive standing solely on the basis of you claiming they are in the transcripts without citing a reference.

What is unquestionably in the transcripts is what has been quoted that makes it clear there are both exercise inputs involved as well as obvious and apparent uncertainty about whether what is seen is real or not real, thus confirming, without more, that the ability to distinguish what was real and what was not real was nonexistent.

This latter issue -- that the inability to distinguish real from unreal served to provide a mechanism by which 9/11 could have been carried out has been ignored by you, unaddressed by you and left to stand unrefuted by you.

Mind you, post as you see fit to choose. You do not have to answer anything you are not inclined to answer.

Showing that it was the 2nd or 5th or 20th day of the exercise doesn't undermine this. These exercises do not run 24HR. They're conducted in normal work hours. 0900 to 1700 each day, or similar. Yes, Vigilant Guardian had been running for a couple of days. No, it had not started for that day.

Yet another of your declarations that stands both unsubstantiated and contradicted by what has been shown to exist in the transcripts and in the records, AS QUOTED in the thread. You, on the otherhand, have not quoted anything to back up your declarations.

Look, everyone knows you have examined NORAD quite closely and that is why the thread could benefit from your input. Specifics matter, however, and you have been short on them here.

It takes only the most basic engagement of brain matter to grasp this obvious and clearly demonstrated fact. Those who fail to grasp it do so through their own refusal to seek fact, favouring instead to remain ignorant, because from a position of ignorance they can speculate to their heart's content.

Even if you demonstrate that an exercise was scheduled to start at a later time, you do not dent in the least the fact that exercise inputs were apparent and were acknowledged. Furthermore, and come to think of it, by declaring that the exercise start time was later, rather than earlier, a convenient factor that would allow "plausible denial" would be created.

I'm afraid, Gumboot, your reliance on "start time" is about as weak a response as one could possibly have imagined. I am compelled to ask, at the risk of offending you, "is "start time' the best argument you can come up with?

If so, your position is all but untenable, imho.

all the best

 

[jammonius]

In NORAD speak an "input" is any data fed manually into the system, and is the responsibility of the Manual Input Technician. They don't input false data however; they input real-world data that isn't automatically fed into the system. The MIT answers to the Air Surveillance Technician.

Please source your assertion "they don't input false data." Afterall, simulations are, by definition, false data.

In the case of exercises, the correct term is "simulation", and all simulated inputs are the responsibility of the Simulation Supervisor, who heads the Simulation Section (a team consisting of various members of the SOCC, created specifically for the exercise in question).

The above, while interesting, sheds no light whatsoever on what either did or did not happen on 9/11, other than to re-confirm that simulation of data is an element of exercises.

The Simulation Supervisor answers to the MCC, while on all matters relating to the running of the SAOC the MCC is in command under authority of the SAOC Director and the Battle Commander. In the case of 9/11 it appears that Nasypany (the MCC) was himself the Simulation Supervisor, while Dawne Deskins, Assistant Director of the SAOC, was reportedly the Exercise Director.

Yet again we are presented with interesting detail but it sheds no light on what happened. Note, too, that the person you refer to as "Nasypany" held the relatively unremarkable rank of major, outranked by Deskins, who I have elsewhere mentioned prominently and provided a picture of.

This is Major Kevin Nasypany:

As to Maj.Nasypany, the following is said:

"When the FAA’s Boston Center first contacts NORAD’s Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) to notify it of the hijacking of Flight 11 (see (8:37 a.m.) September 11, 2001), personnel there initially mistake the hijacking for a simulation as part of an exercise.
Lieutenant Colonel Dawne Deskins, mission crew chief for the Vigilant Guardian exercise currently taking place (see (6:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001), will later say that initially she and everybody else at NEADS think the call from Boston Center is part of Vigilant Guardian. [Newhouse News Service, 1/25/2002] Although most of the personnel on the NEADS operations floor have no idea what the day’s exercise is supposed to entail, most previous major NORAD exercises included a hijack scenario. [USA Today, 4/18/2004; Utica Observer-Dispatch, 8/5/2004] The day’s exercise is in fact scheduled to include a simulated hijacking later on. [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006]
Major Kevin Nasypany, the NEADS mission crew commander, had helped design the day’s exercise. Thinking the reported hijacking is part of it, he actually says out loud, “The hijack’s not supposed to be for another hour.” [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006]

Source: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a837mistakeforexercise#a837mistakeforexercise

The above directly contradicts the claim the exercise was not then and there taking place. The above also serves to call attention to Maj.nasypany's relatively low rank and his expression that something was happening that he was not aware of as being scheduled for that time. The entire quote is consistent with exercise and consistent with unknown layers of deception being involved.

In all instances NEADS were not required in any way to gain permission or approval from higher command before terminating any simulations that might have been scheduled.

All of this is sourced from ACCI 13-SAOC "Air Defense Command And Control Operations".

The above does not account for either what happened, or for the element of deception, at all. Besides, yet again, there is no source given for the information mentioned.

Would you please consider being a bit more forthcoming here, even if we are all, or maybe just me, one or more dummies in your estimation.

thanks

 

[Senenmut]

you just have to listen to the norad tapes to find out what was redacted.

male speaker 10: What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exerrcise inputs coming into cheyenne mountain.

male speaker 1: Yes. can you call 6180 extension for that, please?
male speaker 10: 6180?
male speaker 1: you bet. he'll give you that.

maybe gumboot can tell us who's number that is.....

 

[bio]

In NORAD speak an "input" is any data fed manually into the system, and is the responsibility of the Manual Input Technician. They don't input false data however; they input real-world data that isn't automatically fed into the system. The MIT answers to the Air Surveillance Technician.

In the case of exercises, the correct term is "simulation", and all simulated inputs are the responsibility of the Simulation Supervisor, who heads the Simulation Section (a team consisting of various members of the SOCC, created specifically for the exercise in question).

The Simulation Supervisor answers to the MCC, while on all matters relating to the running of the SAOC the MCC is in command under authority of the SAOC Director and the Battle Commander. In the case of 9/11 it appears that Nasypany (the MCC) was himself the Simulation Supervisor, while Dawne Deskins, Assistant Director of the SAOC, was reportedly the Exercise Director.

In all instances NEADS were not required in any way to gain permission or approval from higher command before terminating any simulations that might have been scheduled.

All of this is sourced from ACCI 13-SAOC "Air Defense Command And Control Operations".

Do you really want to say, that Major Nasypany was the exercise-maestro and was still creating exercise-inputs around 10:20?

progge:
"From the Tapes, however, it’s pretty clear that the NEADS staff was focused on the real-world happenings, and everyone knew them to be real-world happenings. (Just to get a sense of perspective: Around the same time someone on the NEADS Op Floor jokes about the bomb-on-board warning from UA 93 “if this is an exercise input, this is a good one”, and is told to “save this kind of BS“ (MCC TK, channel 3).)
So the claim that NEADS would still generate exercise inputs at 10:12 EDT makes not much sense." post 10

 

[bio]

you just have to listen to the norad tapes to find out what was redacted.

male speaker 10: What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exerrcise inputs coming into cheyenne mountain.

male speaker 1: Yes. can you call 6180 extension for that, please?
male speaker 10: 6180?
male speaker 1: you bet. he'll give you that.

maybe gumboot can tell us who's number that is.....

When you know more ... please share your information.

 

[beachnut]

... How could it be, when according the official conspiracy theory, all exercises were stopped after the second crash around 09:03? ...

... another dumb question. When I need to stop my car, I find it usually happens after I apply my brakes.

All exercises were stopped after the second crash. I have birthdays after my birth. I get up after the sun comes up.

Sometimes I tell my grandkids to stop splashing and it may happen (stop splashing) after I tell them to stop, or may happen a little later after I tell them to stop again, or the first time they are given the word, etc. But always after.

It depends on the what the meaning of 'is' is, and what after is. (like, following in time )

Why does 911 truth make up delusional ideas which mean nothing?

What does it mean? What does your OP mean for your delusions on 911? At least you have the delusion spreading expertise of the expert who says jet engines are wheel covers; now you are complete.

 

[TSR]

.
Then why does your quote make a distinction between "real world" and "exercise?"
.

.
You seem to have missed responding to this, Jamm....

I mean, otherwise, he'd've said, "I've never seen so much real world happen during real world stuff" or "I've never seen so much exercise happen during an exercise."

Or perhaps, "Gee, it's so confusing -- was that real world or was that exercise?"
.

 

[jammonius]

.
You seem to have missed responding to this, Jamm....

I mean, otherwise, he'd've said, "I've never seen so much real world happen during real world stuff" or "I've never seen so much exercise happen during an exercise."

Or perhaps, "Gee, it's so confusing -- was that real world or was that exercise?"
.

Would you please state what your assumptions are about the meaning of that quoted statement, together with the context you rely on.

Basically, TSR, I think you may be engaging in a process that requires reinvention of the wheel, so to speak.

It is not controversial that those involved in NORAD and FAA couldn't distinguish real from exercise. I would have thought the main debunker position on this had long ago conceded that point, made a "so what" declaration about it, and moved on.

Are you still arguing whether NORAD and FAA operatives could or could not distinguish real from unreal?

 

[progge]

It is not controversial that those involved in NORAD and FAA couldn't distinguish real from exercise.

It is not controversial that NEADS staff could easily distinguish real from exercise. One question - one answer - problem solved in seconds:

08:37 ETD, FAA ZBW, MOS Position

“Hi. Boston Center TMU. We have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.”
“Is this real-world or exercise?”
“No, this is not an exercise, not a test.”

08:38 EDT, NEADS, ID Op

“What was that?”
”Is that real world?”
”Real world hijack.”
”Cool!”

08:38 EDT, NEADS MCC Op

„Yeah. So you'd have to get up in the air (inaudible) vector you North (inaudible).“
“Real world (inaudible).“
„Okay (inaudible). Okay.“

08:43 EDT, MCC Op

“I've never seen so much real world stuff happen during an exercise.”

08:44 EDT, MCC Op

„This is exercise?“
“No, this is the real world.”

08:45 EDT, ID Op

“New York Amos”
“Huntress ID.”
“Are you aware of the possible hijack of American 11?”
“No, I'm not.”
“ Boston Center, ma'am, we just got information there is a real-world hijack, American 11. He is headed -- he was 40 miles north of JFK, headed towards JFK.”

08:52 EDT, MCC Op

„Possible news that a 737 just hit the world Trade Center. This is real world. And we're trying to confirm this. And we're trying to confirm this. Okay. Continue taking the fighters down to the New York City area, JFK area as best as you can. Make sure that the FAA clears you a route all the way through. This is what we got to do. Okay. Just press with us. It looks like somebody -- it looks like this guy could have hit the world Trade Center."

The FAA didn´t participate in the NORAD CPXs scheduled for that day, so you won´t hear any such `real-world´-confirmations on the FAA Tapes. The whole exercise procedure was just a non-issue for them.

 

[DGM]

Would you please state what your assumptions are about the meaning of that quoted statement...................

Would you start doing what you ask of others?

 

[jammonius]

Post # 89 might serve as a very useful exercise for posters and lurkers; here's how the that would work:

1 Read post # 89

2 Then, ask yourself: Can I distinguish what is meant by "real" and what is meant by "exercise" in that post?

 

[gumboot]

Post # 89 might serve as a very useful exercise for posters and lurkers; here's how the that would work:

1 Read post # 89

2 Then, ask yourself: Can I distinguish what is meant by "real" and what is meant by "exercise" in that post?

Easily.

 

[TSR]

Are you still arguing whether NORAD and FAA operatives could or could not distinguish real from unreal?

.
No, the quote you've cited makes it crystal clear that they knew the difference between "real world" and "exercise" -- because they had not seen so much "real world" as a distinct entity from "exercise."

Which makes your lame attempts to imply (you seem to be very careful not to make any actual claims -- because when you do, you have to run away from supporting them: I'm still waiting for those "range of lethality" of DEW details which would cause Edna to jump to her death) that there was any confusion as lame as all of the other attempts you make to indict thousands of people of murder, none of which you have the balls to confront directly.
.

 

[bio]

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/911-live-the-norad-tapes-transcript

The "input" could fly into a building according to NEADS? These exercise-inputs should end?

 

[funk de fino]

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/911-live-the-norad-tapes-transcript

The "input" could fly into a building according to NEADS? These exercise-inputs should end?

Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[Dog Town]

Easily.

That's' gotcha' leave a mark!

 

[ProBonoShill]

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/911-live-the-norad-tapes-transcript

The "input" could fly into a building according to NEADS? These exercise-inputs should end?

Congratulations, you've just discoverd two more people to add to the 8 127 persons responsible for this mass conspiracy.

Either that or you don't understand military terminology.

I'm going with the latter.

 

[Cheap Shot]

Members of staff at NORAD/NEADS had difficulty locating Flight 11 and other aircraft on their radar screens. Lt. Col. Dawne Deskins of NEADS will say that when the FAA first calls and reports the first hijacking “He [FAA] gave me the latitude and longitude of that track… [but] there was nothing there.”

The foregoing is, then, clearly consistent with false imagery being used under the quise of an exercise that was real, alright, real in the sense that it was designed to make it appear as if jetliners were hijacked when, in fact, no such thing happened as there were no jetliners involved, all is more fully substantiated by the observable and reported data supplied by the eye and ear witnesses and by the stupidly false video imagery that absolutely did not correspond with the proper sounds that should have been associated with the event, not to mention the crash and explosive dynamics that were entirely consistent with Evan Fairbanks descriptive language of:

"a bad special effect."

Colin Scoggins, the military liaison at the FAA’s Boston Center, later recalls: “I was giving NEADS accurate location information on at least five instances where AA 11 was, yet they could never identify him.… I originally gave them an F/R/D, which is a fix/radial/distance from a known location; they could not identify the target. They requested latitude/longitudes, which I gave them; they still could not identify the AA 11.… I gave them 20 [miles] south of Albany heading south at a high rate of speed, 600 knots, then another call at 50 south of Albany.”

Source: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a837unablelocate#a837unablelocate

[qimg]http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/album2/th_267_dawne_deskins2050081722-9049.jpg?t=1275612155[/qimg]
LtCol. Dawne Deskins didn't have a clue what was real and what was exercise.

For a more complete assessment of Deskins and of the military exercises taking place, including reference to use of simulating hijackings see:

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a630vigilantguardian#a630vigilantguardian


all the best

Wow, I love your research, you grab a picture of Dawn Deskins and state the rank she is now. It's funny when I talked to her 9-11 that she was a major, how did you put that when mentioning Naspany's name "an unremarkable rank of major" I don't ehre you come from but a major in the military isn't that bad of rank. Yet you make a big deal about her out ranking him...

I wish i had the time pick your claims apart tonight but I don't. But quickly you throw statements out there that are so ironic, and leave it at that. Peter Z. at Boston Center never knew where the call came from, do you think he figured it out after AAl11 never responded to his altitude clearance to Flight Level "Three Five Zero" or do you think he is still scrathcing his head as he sits retired in South Boston. Do you think after I had a conversation with MAJOR Deskins and told her it was "Real World", not an exercise that she figured it out sometime that day. You act like thier statement about "two seconds" of thier lives was what they beleived all day long on 9-11.

Your remarks about exercises and how this all played into the evil 3 or 5 people in the government that pulled this off is a joke. I work one end of the exercises at Boston Center, 1st we were never involved in any exercise that day. 2nd when they SIM an exercise at NEADS, it is tied off from thier "Real World" job they use different scopes. Just as we do in the FAA, thier is no way in the FAA that you can SIM a target onto our Real World Scopes, ever.
It can't be done. 3rd exercises normally have a "RED Force the bad guys", and a "Blue Force, the good guys". Exercises are planned for the Red Forces, "Trusted Agents" know wht they are pretty much are going to do. Your theory is based on that these 3 or 5 people knew what the Blue Forces were going to do, standard SOP, that is the farthest from the truth. Planners have an idea what they might do, but any exercie planner will tell you they "Never Go As Planned" That is why they exercise. In addition to that Large Scale Exercises take on a life of thier own they evolve, there is no way the 3 or 5 evil people could base the reactions of what would happen in the exercise, becasue no one ever really knows how it will work out in the end.

I can't wait to get into your no planers theory, but I'm tired and I got to go to bed.

The unremarkable rank of Major, your killing me Jamms

 

[bio]

Congratulations, you've just discoverd two more people to add to the 8 127 persons responsible for this mass conspiracy.

Either that or you don't understand military terminology.

I'm going with the latter.

What are you talking about?

The exercise-inputs could have been the so called "hijacked planes" ... no only "injects" in the radar-screen, "real" staff.

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/...pes-transcript

 

[excaza]

Why has nobody yet pointed out that they don't actually hijack an airplane during exercises?