Nonbelievers and Buddhism

[a3sigma]

Assuming so..here's an experience I had that is very interesting and from which I concluded several things:

Meditation? Could we possibly invent a more effective method of developing a miss-perception, into a miss-conception, thence to an false conviction, and finally a full blown delusion?

"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."
- Richard Feynman

Meditate on that.

 

[NordaVinci]

Well it would be hard to hear them in the first place (the vibrations they create in the atmosphere are very small), and cosmic rays travel close to the speed of light until they enter the atmoshpere, say they were slowed by 50% (just made up that fraction), the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second, so halved that would be 93,000 mps.

So if you heard them from a distance of twelve feet, they would have been in your locale for 2.44 X10 ^-8 seconds. So not really long enough to hear them, or alternatively if you heard them for two seconds , at start and end they would have been 93,000 miles away.

I hate to break this to you, but it seems unlikely they were cosmic rays.

I appreciate your even asking the the question and making the good consideration of what they were. That's a step in the scientific direction. There weren't a lot of them. It was about one every three seconds or so, whatever they were. Also for others, I never took drugs, drank or smoked.

Also just to emphasize, I was NOT trying to put myself in any strange state or to perceive anything that wasn't there.

I suggest that a certain percentage of people who follow the same instructions of breathing, eyes closed, attentively paying attention to one's field of vision, will of course experience the same thing. Nothing paranormal there.

Interestingly some Hindu missionaries I was speaking with in Flushing Queens, explained to me that the different colored speckles of light that one sees on the back of your eyelids (with your eye's closed) in fact are the 5 Hindu elements of water, air,earth, fire and ether. Their guru in India could control these particles and thus demonstrate supernatural strength and other "miracles".

We pay for "know-how". Now we know how....at least we heard how, but unless we did it ourselves too, it's not our "know-how".

 

[Meadmaker]

Also just to emphasize, I was NOT trying to put myself in any strange state or to perceive anything that wasn't there.

But it happened anyway. You cannot see through walls, and you cannot hear subatomic particles.

 

[dafydd]

I appreciate your even asking the the question and making the good consideration of what they were. That's a step in the scientific direction. There weren't a lot of them. It was about one every three seconds or so, whatever they were. Also for others, I never took drugs, drank or smoked.

Also just to emphasize, I was NOT trying to put myself in any strange state or to perceive anything that wasn't there.

I suggest that a certain percentage of people who follow the same instructions of breathing, eyes closed, attentively paying attention to one's field of vision, will of course experience the same thing. Nothing paranormal there.

Interestingly some Hindu missionaries I was speaking with in Flushing Queens, explained to me that the different colored speckles of light that one sees on the back of your eyelids (with your eye's closed) in fact are the 5 Hindu elements of water, air,earth, fire and ether. Their guru in India could control these particles and thus demonstrate supernatural strength and other "miracles".

We pay for "know-how". Now we know how....at least we heard how, but unless we did it ourselves too, it's not our "know-how".

The guru could not control anything,this thread has degenerated into nonsense.Do you have anything sensible to contribute,apart from silly anecdotes? Water,air,earth,fire and ''aether'' are not elements,read a science book.

 

[CKava]

What's the JREF's policy on people who just continuously post anecdotes, prosleytise their religion and completely ignore the topic of the thread?

NordaVinci- "Do you want to hear more of my stories?"
Everyone else- "No they are completely irrelevant and are convincing no-one!"
NordaVinci- "Ok well this one time Rev Moon was talking and..."

...

 

[Meadmaker]

What's the JREF's policy on people who just continuously post anecdotes, prosleytise their religion and completely ignore the topic of the thread?

Off topic posts can be reported. (Use the little exclaimation mark on the left hand side, under the avatar.) If the mods agree, the posts will be removed.

 

[NordaVinci]

The guru could not control anything,this thread has degenerated into nonsense.Do you have anything sensible to contribute,apart from silly anecdotes? Water,air,earth,fire and ''aether'' are not elements,read a science book.

Well, you see, from the point of view of all the Buddhists who already understand the air, earth, water, fire, ether theory, they have the repeatable results that they repeat anytime they want to, such as today all over you tube, healing people, martial arts etc. This is waht is interesting about Buddhism to atheists, which is the topic of this thread. I am probably the only one here who has contributed properly to the thread.

If in the West, we are too narrow minded to even say, "Let's try and understand the Air, Earth, Water, Fire, Ether Theory from the point of view of those who are getting results with it, then....it is of course the West who better fits the title of being superstitious and unscientific.

 

[dafydd]

Well, you see, from the point of view of all the Buddhists who already understand the air, earth, water, fire, ether theory, they have the repeatable results that they repeat anytime they want to, such as today all over you tube, healing people, martial arts etc. This is waht is interesting about Buddhism to atheists, which is the topic of this thread. I am probably the only one here who has contributed properly to the thread.

If in the West, we are too narrow minded to even say, "Let's try and understand the Air, Earth, Water, Fire, Ether Theory from the point of view of those who are getting results with it, then....it is of course the West who better fits the title of being superstitious and unscientific.

The four elements theory is a primitive outmoded idea with no basis in realty.There are no repeatable results,if you know some one who can repeat those feats or even do them once,bring them on for the Million Dollar Challenge.

 

[Meadmaker]

they have the repeatable results that they repeat anytime they want to,

If only they wanted to repeat them for James Randi. They could do so much good showing this to the world, and they would even have a million bucks to use for publicity. Alas, none seem interested.

This is waht is interesting about Buddhism to atheists

No.

Really, no.

Ok. There might be some atheists who believe that stuff and think Buddhism can help them achieve these amazing feats (when Randi isn't looking) but....no. That isn't it.

I am probably the only one here who has contributed properly to the thread.

Your contributions to this thread are certainly unique, so I would agree that you are the only one who has contributed in the way you have. However, I might question the adverb you applied.

I'm trying not to get too bent out of shape about this, but your discussions of these interesting phenomena like seeing through walls, hearing particles, and healing people with five element theory are just not very interesting to most of the people here. We don't believe it, and I dare say it is not what the original poster had in mind when asked what the appeal of Buddhism to atheists is.

 

[dafydd]

If only they wanted to repeat them for James Randi. They could do so much good showing this to the world, and they would even have a million bucks to use for publicity. Alas, none seem interested.




No.

Really, no.

Ok. There might be some atheists who believe that stuff and think Buddhism can help them achieve these amazing feats (when Randi isn't looking) but....no. That isn't it.



Your contributions to this thread are certainly unique, so I would agree that you are the only one who has contributed in the way you have. However, I might question the adverb you applied.

I'm trying not to get too bent out of shape about this, but your discussions of these interesting phenomena like seeing through walls, hearing particles, and healing people with five element theory are just not very interesting to most of the people here. We don't believe it, and I dare say it is not what the original poster had in mind when asked what the appeal of Buddhism to atheists is.

Let's get back on topic and away from the fairy stories.I'm an atheist and Buddhism does not appeal to me.It may be a diluted form of religion,but it's still religion.

 

[the_bunkologist]

Meditation? Could we possibly invent a more effective method of developing a miss-perception, into a miss-conception, thence to an false conviction, and finally a full blown delusion?

"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."
- Richard Feynman

Meditate on that.

This is a lot like saying:

Exercise? Could we possibly invent a more efficient way to hurt your back, damage your joints, and finally make yourself disabled?

It's like that because there definitely are kinds of exercise (and meditation) that will do you harm. And if even if you use good, sensible kinds of exercise (or meditation) in stupid ways, you can do real harm to yourself. But neither 'exercise' nor 'meditation' are homogeneous classes. There are good and bad kinds. There are also good and bad ways to use those kinds.

If, for example, you meditate all day to perceive magical auras around you, you've done harm to yourself and your worldview. If, on the other hand, you spend 20 minutes each morning observing your breath and calming your mind, you've done something very positive for yourself (science type references available on request).

One of the things that (sensible) meditation is good for is learning about yourself, your mental habits and emotional reactions. It's easy to see why: most forms of meditation just are sitting still and practicing the skill of noticing them. No magic, just practicing a cognitive skill. So used properly, meditation is absolutely a way to help avoid fooling yourself.

 

[a3sigma]

So used properly, meditation is absolutely a way to help avoid fooling yourself.

Absolutely? I respectfully suggest that absolutes are bunk, bunkologist. But I'll happily agree that what you describe may be good mental hygiene.

Anyway, my question stands. I'll rephrase it: Is there a surer path to self deception then to nurture the belief that some sort of higher knowledge is obtained by looking within oneself rather than by looking at the world?

And yes, I understand that's not the sort of meditation you're talking about. But it's the sort that I'm talking about, and it's what this thread is about. (Unless I've completely lost track of it, what with all those pesky cosmic particles whizzing around my ears. Dammit, there goes another one. Where's that fly swatter?)

 

[the_bunkologist]

Absolutely? I respectfully suggest that absolutes are bunk, bunkologist. But I'll happily agree that what you describe may be good mental hygiene.

Then I'll happily agree that absolutes are bunk. Absolutely.

Anyway, my question stands. I'll rephrase it: Is there a surer path to self deception then to nurture the belief that some sort of higher knowledge is obtained by looking within oneself rather than by looking at the world?

And yes, I understand that's not the sort of meditation you're talking about. But it's the sort that I'm talking about, and it's what this thread is about. (Unless I've completely lost track of it, what with all those pesky cosmic particles whizzing around my ears. Dammit, there goes another one. Where's that fly swatter?)

I think the thread has been derailed a bit. The OP was about what, if anything, is worthwhile in buddhism from the skeptical perspective. I'm more interested in that than all the ways it can go woo.

 

[Meadmaker]

Anyway, my question stands. I'll rephrase it: Is there a surer path to self deception then to nurture the belief that some sort of higher knowledge is obtained by looking within oneself rather than by looking at the world?

"Higher" knowledge? Maybe not, but certainly knowledge. Is your mind not part of the world? Why look everywhere else but there?

 

[a3sigma]

"Higher" knowledge? Maybe not, but certainly knowledge. Is your mind not part of the world? Why look everywhere else but there?

I have looked there. And one of the things I learned is that after you've gotten into yourself, you need to get over yourself. The most important thing to remember in self analysis is that: "A doctor who treats himself has got a fool for a patient".

 

[Meadmaker]

I have looked there. And one of the things I learned is that after you've gotten into yourself, you need to get over yourself.

The Buddha agrees.

 

[NordaVinci]

Well, again... a general reply...the 3,4, or 5 element theory is not outmoded, dispproven, or outdated. It is pan-asian. All mystical experience and systems from all over asia train according to it, and explain accurately according to it. If you ignore the phenomenology that is psychological and physical, then you are ignoring their method of obtaining mind/body unity within themselves, and between themselves and nature. This is the heart of Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism/Confucianism. If one is not interested in understanding what you don't understand in such an important area, then what?

Also one of you claimed or several of you claimed that my simple meditation experience was impossible. Were you being scientific? Does some light go through wall and your eyelids? Of course it does. Is is possible that your eye is sensitive to it? Yes. Can your brain reorganize light and present it to you as a picture. Of course it can. Did my experience happen. Yes. Can anyone do it. Yes. Is it paranormal? No.

 

[Meadmaker]

If, for example, you meditate all day to perceive magical auras around you, you've done harm to yourself and your worldview. If, on the other hand, you spend 20 minutes each morning observing your breath and calming your mind, you've done something very positive for yourself (science type references available on request).

I want to emphasize what the bunkologist has said here, especially the last line. The thread began by asking about the appeal to nonbelievers. My focus has been mostly noting the philosophical areas of agreeement and how one can practice Buddhism without adopting wooish beliefs normally associated with religion. That still leaves a big, open, question. Why bother?

Even more than a philosophical system, Buddhism involves an actual practice, especially of meditation. In my own experience, I found that meditation could be calming, a very effective anti-anxiety drug, and also a way to help focus. There can be practical benefits, and these have been studied scientifically. If one is inclined toward Buddhism, but can't see a point in actually doing it, a bit of research into the practice of meditation might reveal some incentives.

Of course, that has to be weighed against the cost of taking all the time to actually do it. Doing nothing takes up a lot of your day.

 

[a3sigma]

The OP was about what, if anything, is worthwhile in buddhism from the skeptical perspective. I'm more interested in that than all the ways it can go woo.

The book to read, if you haven't, is The Worlds Religions by Houston Smith. He writes that what Buddha preached was devoid of authority, ritual, speculation, theology, tradition, grace, and the supernatural. That it was empirical, scientific, pragmatic, therapeutic, psychological, egalitarian, and individual. Buddha is described as utterly rejecting and rebelling against the woo saturated Hindu culture he was raised in.

Much or all of the above, it seems to me, will come as news to the majority of self described Buddhists these days. The ones I've met, anyway.

 

[dafydd]

Well, again... a general reply...the 3,4, or 5 element theory is not outmoded, dispproven, or outdated. It is pan-asian. All mystical experience and systems from all over asia train according to it, and explain accurately according to it. If you ignore the phenomenology that is psychological and physical, then you are ignoring their method of obtaining mind/body unity within themselves, and between themselves and nature. This is the heart of Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism/Confucianism. If one is not interested in understanding what you don't understand in such an important area, then what?

Also one of you claimed or several of you claimed that my simple meditation experience was impossible. Were you being scientific? Does some light go through wall and your eyelids? Of course it does. Is is possible that your eye is sensitive to it? Yes. Can your brain reorganize light and present it to you as a picture. Of course it can. Did my experience happen. Yes. Can anyone do it. Yes. Is it paranormal? No.

Another derail but I'll go along with it.The four or five elements theory is outdated,disproven and primitive.Read a science book.If you disagree then tell me how fire,air,earth and water combine to form say,plutonium.And what exactly does the four or five elements theory explain? Nobody is saying that light does not penetrate the eyelids,what we are saying is that you cannot hear subatomic particles whizzing by,do you know how long it takes a muon to travel from the upper atmosphere to the surface of the Earth?