Nonbelievers and Buddhism

Not wanting to hijack the thred away from Buddhism,
but for those interested...
http://www.drchinese.com/David/EPR_Bell_Aspect.htm


1. Any fool can use google to find a link, remaining utterly ignorant
2. I rarely read any linked materials - life is too short
3. He posed the question to you to probe the depth of your ignorance - a link just doesn't cut it
4. Step away from the keyboard and read a good book on science
 
1. Any fool can use google to find a link, remaining utterly ignorant
2. I rarely read any linked materials - life is too short
3. He posed the question to you to probe the depth of your ignorance - a link just doesn't cut it
4. Step away from the keyboard and read a good book on science

My first book about the Aspekt and Bell's theorem experiment I read about 14 years ago. How about "Quantum Dots". Anybody excited about that subject....(very, very exciting technology)

But seriously, I asked the question about "nonlocality in time and space". This has to do with Buddhism in the sense of the meditative dimension and the reach of the mind. If it all boils down to a few electrons bumping around, then indeed this might be all there is. But how today is that comphehended? It has to be in terms of Quantum ElectroDynamics (QED as in Feymann's book) and "nonlocality in both time and space" (some might read Transcendant of Time and Space)

Buddha in fact skipped God and penetrated to the root from which various mystics(Meyer Baba, and Ram Chandra to name two) have claimed that "God developed from". This region is known as The Central Region that can be experienced by anyone who pursues the altruistic path of Buddhism.
 
But seriously, I asked the question about "nonlocality in time and space". This has to do with Buddhism in the sense of the meditative dimension and the reach of the mind. If it all boils down to a few electrons bumping around, then indeed this might be all there is. But how today is that comphehended?

:jaw-dropp I was going to let it slide because I figured you had brought up the "Measurement Theory of Quantum Mechanics" to sound smart or something. Now it's clear that you are engaging in one of the most absurd activities known to science. Quantum physics have nothing to do with meditation or Buddhism. Trying to combine an actual, REAL science with crazy mysticism simply because you don't understand the intricacies of the science is a fallacy. It's also a huge pet peeve of mine.

It has to be in terms of Quantum ElectroDynamics (QED as in Feymann's book) and "nonlocality in both time and space" (some might read Transcendant of Time and Space)

YOU might read "transcendant" of time and space. Just because some Buddhist text and a scientific journal include the words "time and space" in a sentence, does NOT mean the rest of the words in that sentence mean the same. Nonlocality does not mean what you think it does.

Thoughts, memories, consciousness, souls, and chi are NOT electrons.

You should probably do more research. Research Buddhism on Buddhism websites and science on science websites, and you'll be way more informed. Please do not confuse quantum physics with mysticism. Because even though some of the verbage might be similar, they have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

/derail
 
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:jaw-dropp I was going to let it slide because I figured you had brought up the "Measurement Theory of Quantum Mechanics" to sound smart or something. Now it's clear that you are engaging in one of the most absurd activities known to science. Quantum physics have nothing to do with meditation or Buddhism. Trying to combine an actual, REAL science with crazy mysticism simply because you don't understand the intricacies of the science is a fallacy. It's also a huge pet peeve of mine.



YOU might read "transcendant" of time and space. Just because some Buddhist text and a scientific journal include the words "time and space" in a sentence, does NOT mean the rest of the words in that sentence mean the same. Nonlocality does not mean what you think it does.

Thoughts, memories, consciousness, souls, and chi are NOT electrons.

You should probably do more research. Research Buddhism on Buddhism websites and science on science websites, and you'll be way more informed. Please do not confuse quantum physics with mysticism. Because even though some of the verbage might be similar, they have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

/derail

Am I to understand that you are avoiding the issue.....? Do you not understand that "nonlocality in time and space" has absolutely been established by repeatable experiment..even just the "double slit electron scattering experiment". For goodness sake, every electron can win the Million Dollar Challenge with quantum weirdness.

Electron's fired at the double slit target..5 or 10 minutes apart..somehow interfere with each other...and form an interference pattern on the target screen. How do the electrons "know" where to go and where not to go......?

Furthermore, in Quantum Dots, how are the electrons able to shut off the coulombic repulsion and order themselves according to unique quantum states...as though there were a nucleus...except in quantum dots there isn't any nucleus....

Also how about the 4 or so new types of lightning that were discovered in the 1990's that scientists have no theoretical handle on.

I'm not just bringing this up to sound smart. Physics is an experimental science, and doesn't claim to know why electrons do what they do, but only records the experimental facts.

After it was shown that electrons violate parity, and the experimenters got the Nobel prize the next year (not after 5, 10, or 20 years), some physicists concluded that electrons have consciousness.....This is a relatively long time ago now.

I happen to agree with that...electron's definitely have consciousness and quantum mechanics is studying it. Also, it might be said, and I am definitely saying, that all particle/energy has measuring capacity which generates the known forces of physics. That measuring ability is also responsible for consciousness and the different states thereof.
 
My first book about the Aspekt and Bell's theorem experiment I read about 14 years ago. How about "Quantum Dots". Anybody excited about that subject....(very, very exciting technology)

But seriously, I asked the question about "nonlocality in time and space". This has to do with Buddhism in the sense of the meditative dimension and the reach of the mind. If it all boils down to a few electrons bumping around, then indeed this might be all there is. But how today is that comphehended? It has to be in terms of Quantum ElectroDynamics (QED as in Feymann's book) and "nonlocality in both time and space" (some might read Transcendant of Time and Space)

Buddha in fact skipped God and penetrated to the root from which various mystics(Meyer Baba, and Ram Chandra to name two) have claimed that "God developed from". This region is known as The Central Region that can be experienced by anyone who pursues the altruistic path of Buddhism.

Buddhism and quantum physics have nothing to do with each other.I blame Fritjov Capra,he started it by writing that silly book,The Tao Of Physics.
 
I happen to agree with that...electron's definitely have consciousness and quantum mechanics is studying it. Also, it might be said, and I am definitely saying, that all particle/energy has measuring capacity which generates the known forces of physics. That measuring ability is also responsible for consciousness and the different states thereof.

Is that supposed to mean something? There is physics and there is new age woo,and never the twain shall meet.
 
:jaw-dropp I was going to let it slide because I figured you had brought up the "Measurement Theory of Quantum Mechanics" to sound smart or something. Now it's clear that you are engaging in one of the most absurd activities known to science. Quantum physics have nothing to do with meditation or Buddhism. Trying to combine an actual, REAL science with crazy mysticism simply because you don't understand the intricacies of the science is a fallacy. It's also a huge pet peeve of mine.

If it helps (actually, this may make you even more annoyed) NordaVinci doesn't seem to understand Buddhism either. I've never heard a serious Buddhist talk about 'transcending space and time' or whatever, and I've listened to quite a few. Actual Buddhists talk about changing negative patterns of behavior, or learning to be more mindful, boring crap like that.
 
If it helps (actually, this may make you even more annoyed) NordaVinci doesn't seem to understand Buddhism either. I've never heard a serious Buddhist talk about 'transcending space and time' or whatever, and I've listened to quite a few. Actual Buddhists talk about changing negative patterns of behavior, or learning to be more mindful, boring crap like that.

No he doesn't understand it.I was interested in Buddhism in my younger days,and here is what it's all about.

The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.



1. Life means suffering.

To live means to suffer, because the human nature is not perfect and neither is the world we live in. During our lifetime, we inevitably have to endure physical suffering such as pain, sickness, injury, tiredness, old age, and eventually death; and we have to endure psychological suffering like sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, and depression. Although there are different degrees of suffering and there are also positive experiences in life that we perceive as the opposite of suffering, such as ease, comfort and happiness, life in its totality is imperfect and incomplete, because our world is subject to impermanence. This means we are never able to keep permanently what we strive for, and just as happy moments pass by, we ourselves and our loved ones will pass away one day, too.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things and the ignorance thereof. Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas, and -in a greater sense- all objects of our perception. Ignorance is the lack of understanding of how our mind is attached to impermanent things. The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardour, pursuit of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

The cessation of suffering can be attained through nirodha. Nirodha means the unmaking of sensual craving and conceptual attachment. The third noble truth expresses the idea that suffering can be ended by attaining dispassion. Nirodha extinguishes all forms of clinging and attachment. This means that suffering can be overcome through human activity, simply by removing the cause of suffering. Attaining and perfecting dispassion is a process of many levels that ultimately results in the state of Nirvana. Nirvana means freedom from all worries, troubles, complexes, fabrications and ideas. Nirvana is not comprehensible for those who have not attained it.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

There is a path to the end of suffering - a gradual path of self-improvement, which is described more detailed in the Eightfold Path. It is the middle way between the two extremes of excessive self-indulgence (hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism); and it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth. The latter quality discerns it from other paths which are merely "wandering on the wheel of becoming", because these do not have a final object. The path to the end of suffering can extend over many lifetimes, throughout which every individual rebirth is subject to karmic conditioning. Craving, ignorance, delusions, and its effects will disappear gradually, as progress is made on the path.



Not a word about double slit experiments,Bell's Theorem or conscious sub-atomic particles.
 
My first book about the Aspekt and Bell's theorem experiment I read about 14 years ago. How about "Quantum Dots". Anybody excited about that subject....(very, very exciting technology)

But seriously, I asked the question about "nonlocality in time and space". This has to do with Buddhism in the sense of the meditative dimension and the reach of the mind.
Um, show any QM effect for a brain that smears at a distance of less than a millmeters?

the mind is a fiction.
If it all boils down to a few electrons bumping around, then indeed this might be all there is. But how today is that comphehended? It has to be in terms of Quantum ElectroDynamics (QED as in Feymann's book) and "nonlocality in both time and space" (some might read Transcendant of Time and Space)

Buddha in fact skipped God and penetrated to the root from which various mystics(Meyer Baba, and Ram Chandra to name two) have claimed that "God developed from". This region is known as The Central Region that can be experienced by anyone who pursues the altruistic path of Buddhism.


Say Hi to the Easter Bunny when you visit!
 
No he doesn't understand it.I was interested in Buddhism in my younger days,and here is what it's all about.

The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.



1. Life means suffering.

To live means to suffer, because the human nature is not perfect and neither is the world we live in. During our lifetime, we inevitably have to endure physical suffering such as pain, sickness, injury, tiredness, old age, and eventually death; and we have to endure psychological suffering like sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, and depression. Although there are different degrees of suffering and there are also positive experiences in life that we perceive as the opposite of suffering, such as ease, comfort and happiness, life in its totality is imperfect and incomplete, because our world is subject to impermanence. This means we are never able to keep permanently what we strive for, and just as happy moments pass by, we ourselves and our loved ones will pass away one day, too.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things and the ignorance thereof. Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas, and -in a greater sense- all objects of our perception. Ignorance is the lack of understanding of how our mind is attached to impermanent things. The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardour, pursuit of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

The cessation of suffering can be attained through nirodha. Nirodha means the unmaking of sensual craving and conceptual attachment. The third noble truth expresses the idea that suffering can be ended by attaining dispassion. Nirodha extinguishes all forms of clinging and attachment. This means that suffering can be overcome through human activity, simply by removing the cause of suffering. Attaining and perfecting dispassion is a process of many levels that ultimately results in the state of Nirvana. Nirvana means freedom from all worries, troubles, complexes, fabrications and ideas. Nirvana is not comprehensible for those who have not attained it.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

There is a path to the end of suffering - a gradual path of self-improvement, which is described more detailed in the Eightfold Path. It is the middle way between the two extremes of excessive self-indulgence (hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism); and it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth. The latter quality discerns it from other paths which are merely "wandering on the wheel of becoming", because these do not have a final object. The path to the end of suffering can extend over many lifetimes, throughout which every individual rebirth is subject to karmic conditioning. Craving, ignorance, delusions, and its effects will disappear gradually, as progress is made on the path.



Not a word about double slit experiments,Bell's Theorem or conscious sub-atomic particles.

Looks like you didn't notice the discussion in The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation........Evens-Wentz series..first read it about 40 years ago.
 
Am I to understand that you are avoiding the issue.....? Do you not understand that "nonlocality in time and space" has absolutely been established by repeatable experiment..even just the "double slit electron scattering experiment". For goodness sake, every electron can win the Million Dollar Challenge with quantum weirdness.
If english is not your first language I will give you a pass.

It is not 'scattering', to begin with.

And it does not demonstrate 'non-locality'.
Electron's fired at the double slit target..5 or 10 minutes apart..somehow interfere with each other...and form an interference pattern on the target screen. How do the electrons "know" where to go and where not to go......?
Question 1: How do you establish that they are not interfering with themselves?
Question 2: What demonstrates that they are non-local across the time frame?

Furthermore, in Quantum Dots, how are the electrons able to shut off the coulombic repulsion and order themselves according to unique quantum states...as though there were a nucleus...except in quantum dots there isn't any nucleus....
Do you want to rephrase that or maybe point to the experiment?

Quantum dots are in a semi conductor material, so what is your question about?
The band separation?
Also how about the 4 or so new types of lightning that were discovered in the 1990's that scientists have no theoretical handle on.
Nice lack of citation, if you mean elfs and dangling carrots, you are wrong.

What are you talking about?
I'm not just bringing this up to sound smart. Physics is an experimental science, and doesn't claim to know why electrons do what they do, but only records the experimental facts.
Just because an electron can exist here or across the universe, does not mean your brain can.
After it was shown that electrons violate parity, and the experimenters got the Nobel prize the next year (not after 5, 10, or 20 years), some physicists concluded that electrons have consciousness.....This is a relatively long time ago now.
Which exactly 'parity' violation and how does that demonstrate consciousness?

This:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/19521
I happen to agree with that...electron's definitely have consciousness and quantum mechanics is studying it. Also, it might be said, and I am definitely saying, that all particle/energy has measuring capacity which generates the known forces of physics. That measuring ability is also responsible for consciousness and the different states thereof.

Whoosh, that one will take a while to parse:
"I happen to agree with that...electron's definitely have consciousness and quantum mechanics is studying it."

Well, I can't see where you demonstrated more than a speculative hypothesis.


" Also, it might be said, and I am definitely saying, that all particle/energy has measuring capacity which generates the known forces of physics."

I am not sure what you mean there?


"That measuring ability is also responsible for consciousness and the different states thereof."

More speculative hypothesis.
 
Um, show any QM effect for a brain that smears at a distance of less than a millmeters?

the mind is a fiction.

But wasn't the Aspekt experiment repeated with positive results at a distance of 10 miles......


Say Hi to the Easter Bunny when you visit!

And exactly where might we we find proposed Easter Bunny...since you seem to know...?
 
If english is not your first language I will give you a pass.

It is not 'scattering', to begin with.

And it does not demonstrate 'non-locality'.

Question 1: How do you establish that they are not interfering with themselves?
Question 2: What demonstrates that they are non-local across the time frame?


Do you want to rephrase that or maybe point to the experiment?

Quantum dots are in a semi conductor material, so what is your question about?
The band separation?

Nice lack of citation, if you mean elfs and dangling carrots, you are wrong.

What are you talking about?

Just because an electron can exist here or across the universe, does not mean your brain can.

Which exactly 'parity' violation and how does that demonstrate consciousness?

This:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/19521


Whoosh, that one will take a while to parse:
"I happen to agree with that...electron's definitely have consciousness and quantum mechanics is studying it."

Well, I can't see where you demonstrated more than a speculative hypothesis.


" Also, it might be said, and I am definitely saying, that all particle/energy has measuring capacity which generates the known forces of physics."

I am not sure what you mean there?


"That measuring ability is also responsible for consciousness and the different states thereof."

More speculative hypothesis.

Just wanted to add (cause I'm a little busy now) that I appreciate your responses. I'll read your response and take more time to think about and respond later. After all, very smart people, probably including ourselves, are sometimes wrong, or a little bit wrong, or 25% wrong etc. New discoveries come about by challenging assumptions or even in repeating experiments, or even in doing things with a new approach....

Perhaps some of you here have made technical discoveries that were previously thought to be impossible. As for myself, I made one item like that in the radio frequency area. World level experts told me I was wrong, that they believed in the laws of physics, and walked away angry when I first tried to explain it. However, our company was already selling it to the biggest telecommunications companies in the U.S.A. and Canada.

We didn't even advertise. Engineers from these companies were telling each other that the only place to get this component was from our company. A few years after the life cycle of the component had finished, and our business was going down, I decided to write an article in a technical magazine about it.

Amazingly the same world level expert, who had walked away angry, was the owner, publisher and then technical editor of the magazine. He changed his opinion, because he knew our consultant, first engineer at Vectron, who when he first saw my component, wondered how it worked, because it wasn't supposed to work. I wrote the article and that guy published it. The guy started Eagleware, which he eventually sold to Agilent (Formerly HP). Eagleware doesn't simulate the frequency response of this component inspite of its exact solutions of Maxwell's equations method of finite element analysis.

Component was a Meander Line Diplexer, 3 port device, with no ground plane on the other side of the circuit board.

How then was the constant impedance of the transmission line maintained????

People are often so specialized these days that even if you are a Dr. of physics, you might not understand radio frequency.

Reason I am mentioning this, is that in order for serious discussion to take place, we have to respect the sincerity and seriousness of people, and be able to prove to others that we know what we are talking about. I'm willing to do that. I hope others are also. Isn't this what the Randi Forum advertises?

How long did it take me to research and make that component? Over a three month period, it took about a solid month of time. (1997)
 
And exactly where might we we find proposed Easter Bunny...since you seem to know...?

Well, if you do find him, you couldn't possibly know "exactly" where he was, nor "exactly" how fast he was going.

But what does this all have to do with Buddhism?
 
... some physicists concluded that electrons have consciousness.....This is a relatively long time ago now.

I happen to agree with that...electron's definitely have consciousness and quantum mechanics is studying it. ...


The hum of transformers must be electrons meditating.
 
Looks like you didn't notice the discussion in The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation........Evens-Wentz series..first read it about 40 years ago.

Tibetan Buddhism has many Bonpo influences,woo in other words.I regard it as a bastardization of Buddhism.
 

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