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nomads

quarky

Banned
Q
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
20,121
The slow demise of nomadic cultures makes me nostalgic in a way that I don't 'own' in any way.

My idea of a good vacation is when I get to hike in strange territory, for several days, carrying my creature comforts on my back, and gathering some wild foods on the journey.

Like other nature junkies, I'm willing to pay for the too-brief experience of the hint of what our ancestral consciousness might have been.

Better yet, would be to do this with a group of friends and family; a tribe, for lack of better word.

Of course, this is sort-of phony. I manage to avoid the horrors and hardships of the historical nomads...yet, I'm left envious of the pre-agricultural societies.

When people learned enough to stay put, and reproduce like bunnies; and we discovered repetitious toil, enslavement, stashing of 'wealth', and a host of other dubious gains...well, something precious was lost.

So I ponder:

In an enlightened, more utopian future fantasy, who doesn't imagine the joys of travel and the sense of wonder and discovery?

Is it possible that if we were to consciously evolve, or create, the best possible lives that humans could have on this planet, might we consider the nomadic tribe, with the plus of knowing what sort of population density might allow it's continuation?

Toss in a few technological breakthroughs; some egalitarian attitudes; some hard bought wisdom...

Wouldn't the hunter-gatherer experience be the tits?

As opposed to the star-trekian, matching outfits, titanium coated sci-fi future? With tv dinners coming from a computer driven apparatus, and hybrid yeasts supplying our dietary needs, and things being clean and predictable, with 20 billion moderately satisfied human souls living the ok life?

your thoughts appreciated.

quarky
 
For some reason, words like "idealized" and "romanticized" leap immediately to mind.
 
quarky said:
The slow demise of nomadic cultures makes me nostalgic in a way that I don't 'own' in any way.

My idea of a good vacation is when I get to hike in strange territory, for several days, carrying my creature comforts on my back, and gathering some wild foods on the journey.

Like other nature junkies, I'm willing to pay for the too-brief experience of the hint of what our ancestral consciousness might have been.

Better yet, would be to do this with a group of friends and family; a tribe, for lack of better word.

Of course, this is sort-of phony. I manage to avoid the horrors and hardships of the historical nomads...yet, I'm left envious of the pre-agricultural societies.

When people learned enough to stay put, and reproduce like bunnies; and we discovered repetitious toil, enslavement, stashing of 'wealth', and a host of other dubious gains...well, something precious was lost.

So I ponder:

In an enlightened, more utopian future fantasy, who doesn't imagine the joys of travel and the sense of wonder and discovery?

Is it possible that if we were to consciously evolve, or create, the best possible lives that humans could have on this planet, might we consider the nomadic tribe, with the plus of knowing what sort of population density might allow it's continuation?

Toss in a few technological breakthroughs; some egalitarian attitudes; some hard bought wisdom...

Wouldn't the hunter-gatherer experience be the tits?

As opposed to the star-trekian, matching outfits, titanium coated sci-fi future? With tv dinners coming from a computer driven apparatus, and hybrid yeasts supplying our dietary needs, and things being clean and predictable, with 20 billion moderately satisfied human souls living the ok life?

your thoughts appreciated.

quarky
Click to expand...

Yay quarky! :) I have always cherished a secret love for that idea. True, it probably works better as the basis for a fantasy series than anything else... complete with lots of CGI mammoths and a cute little dinosaur baby named Binky... (it's my movie, I'll have anachronisms if I want to.) But I do like it.
 
quarky said:
My idea of a good vacation is when I get to hike in strange territory, for several days, carrying my creature comforts on my back, and gathering some wild foods on the journey.
Click to expand...
Personally I'd rather give myself a lobotomy with a serrated spoon and flay the soles of my feet with a potato peeler. But if that's what floats your boat, and you do it sensibly and with a care for the possible risks, then go for it.
 
quixotecoyote said:
For some reason, words like "idealized" and "romanticized" leap immediately to mind.
Click to expand...

Of course. This is a sci-fi philosophy meandering.


In my pretend defense, I ask you:

Describe the ideal future life style for humans, if you dare.

You too, Arth.
 
In a futuristic utopian society, most if not all wilderness areas will have been explored - remotely, if not by actual boots on the ground. People will find things to explore that aren't geographical. However, I think that some would still choose to get their boots on the ground anyway, for recreation.
 
quarky said:
Of course. This is a sci-fi philosophy meandering.


In my pretend defense, I ask you:

Describe the ideal future life style for humans, if you dare.

You too, Arth.
Click to expand...

Based on the OP --- I would recommend you take a vacation and see the movie "Idiocracy" if you haven't :)

Oh and by the way, just to open the can of worms .... would you say you are describing a type of former Eden in contrast with a possible future utopia? ;-) I had to. :)

What makes us desire an Eden and Utopia?

Now, toss in some technological breakthroughs and you're talking Avatar or the Holodeck ! ;-)

In all seriousness, there is another "type" of reality that comes with living in the "wild". I've traveled extensively and lived as an expatriate, an illegal immigrant, and in places with no transport, running water, etc. In fact, I have lived where we collected water as it ran out the side of a cliff face from the water table onto a beach and traveled by ox cart.

But I would say one of the most rewarding times of my life was living near the Olympic National Park in Washington State (USA). We frequently wildcrafted (gathered our own plants to make tinctures and medicines) and stayed for extended periods in the woods with no food other than what was around us (berries, fern roots, etc). I'm the farthest thing from a "hippie", etc ---- but it was something I wanted to experience so I could see a certain type of way of life for myself. And I can say that spending five days alone, miles into a trail with the same bear watching your camp for most of that time changes the way you see life around you, and what "philosophy" and "religion" become to a person.

Sitting here on my MacBook Pro, I close it and go to bed, analyzing my thought experiments and daily practical thinking. But when I'm awoken in the middle of the night be a bear sniffing around my tent, and my adrenaline starts to pump as my senses are heightened ... and I slowly reach for my knife, trying not to make too much of a sound .... when that bear finally leaves, and my heart stops pounding so loudly I can hear it ...

.... I am thankful. To what am I thankful? I don't know. But it doesn't matter to me at that moment.
 
trentwray said:
Based on the OP --- I would recommend you take a vacation and see the movie "Idiocracy" if you haven't :)

Oh and by the way, just to open the can of worms .... would you say you are describing a type of former Eden in contrast with a possible future utopia? ;-) I had to. :)

What makes us desire an Eden and Utopia?

Now, toss in some technological breakthroughs and you're talking Avatar or the Holodeck ! ;-)

In all seriousness, there is another "type" of reality that comes with living in the "wild". I've traveled extensively and lived as an expatriate, an illegal immigrant, and in places with no transport, running water, etc. In fact, I have lived where we collected water as it ran out the side of a cliff face from the water table onto a beach and traveled by ox cart.

But I would say one of the most rewarding times of my life was living near the Olympic National Park in Washington State (USA). We frequently wildcrafted (gathered our own plants to make tinctures and medicines) and stayed for extended periods in the woods with no food other than what was around us (berries, fern roots, etc). I'm the farthest thing from a "hippie", etc ---- but it was something I wanted to experience so I could see a certain type of way of life for myself. And I can say that spending five days alone, miles into a trail with the same bear watching your camp for most of that time changes the way you see life around you, and what "philosophy" and "religion" become to a person.

Sitting here on my MacBook Pro, I close it and go to bed, analyzing my thought experiments and daily practical thinking. But when I'm awoken in the middle of the night be a bear sniffing around my tent, and my adrenaline starts to pump as my senses are heightened ... and I slowly reach for my knife, trying not to make too much of a sound .... when that bear finally leaves, and my heart stops pounding so loudly I can hear it ...

.... I am thankful. To what am I thankful? I don't know. But it doesn't matter to me at that moment.
Click to expand...



exactly.

i would go as far as to claim this:

the popularity of war is driven by the need of young men to have gutsy, nitty-gritty experiences, with fellow 'adventurers'.

During the so-called "Cival War" in the U.S., farm boys signed up for the chance to get away from drudgery at home, and maybe impress their girl-friend with a real uniform.

To this day, young men willingly enter conflicts that they have almost no understanding of. Its about the chance to have a more 'raw' experience.
That alone is the underlying, and decent, morality of war.

Birth control alone could have saved the possibility of heaven on Earth.
Now we know.

What about a distant future with a mere 1 billion or less humans?
By design, as opposed to blundering there painfully?

The top of the present food chain likes to fantasize travel in their 'retirement years'. They are out there now, as I type, in their Winnebagos; seeking the momentary possibility of the new and un-expected.

Meanwhile, it snowed a lot here. I was surprised that I saw no kids, playing in the snow; rejoicing that school was closed. No snowballs were thrown.

They were all at home, playing the computer game "Snowball Fight". They were staving off the boredom, while their parents were considering which new drugs to get them on so they wouldn't act all depressed.

Am I being too philosophical?
Am I a hippy?
 
quarky said:
exactly.

i would go as far as to claim this:

the popularity of war is driven by the need of young men to have gutsy, nitty-gritty experiences, with fellow 'adventurers'.

During the so-called "Cival War" in the U.S., farm boys signed up for the chance to get away from drudgery at home, and maybe impress their girl-friend with a real uniform.

To this day, young men willingly enter conflicts that they have almost no understanding of. Its about the chance to have a more 'raw' experience.
That alone is the underlying, and decent, morality of war.

Birth control alone could have saved the possibility of heaven on Earth.
Now we know.

What about a distant future with a mere 1 billion or less humans?
By design, as opposed to blundering there painfully?

The top of the present food chain likes to fantasize travel in their 'retirement years'. They are out there now, as I type, in their Winnebagos; seeking the momentary possibility of the new and un-expected.

Meanwhile, it snowed a lot here. I was surprised that I saw no kids, playing in the snow; rejoicing that school was closed. No snowballs were thrown.

They were all at home, playing the computer game "Snowball Fight". They were staving off the boredom, while their parents were considering which new drugs to get them on so they wouldn't act all depressed.

Am I being too philosophical?
Am I a hippy?
Click to expand...
Nope --- you're being human :) And unfortunately or fortunately, our parents had sex and gave birth to us, adding to the population :)

Now --- if a future with less people (undesireable people) but full of the best of our technology alongside the "earth at it's best".... planned and groomed to the extent of what the "successful and empowered informed" believe to be ideal ---- I don't think that's unreasonable to desire. But is how we go about it one way better than another?

The Nazi's tried it one way, as did the Europeans who came over to North America and desolated the Native Americans and pretty much everything in sight. China has their own methods. Is accomplishing the same thing through science instead of murder better or any different?

I don't know. I just know I was born and never asked to be. The parts of life I like, I like and can thank man,god,nature --- whoever or whatever I choose. The parts I'm disenfranchised with I can blame man,god,nature --- whoever or whatever I choose.

Now, take away the idea of a god or intelligent nature, and that leaves man. We should both thank and blame ourselves. Perhaps if we focussed on god or an intelligent nature, ideally we would stop blaming each other and just blame god or nature. But that hasn't worked so far has it? LOL

Would taking personal responsibility make any difference? Not blaming anyone or anything ... just myself? idk. doesn't always seem to work either.

So I blame my parents horniness. :) LOL
 
Meanwhile, it snowed a lot here. I was surprised that I saw no kids, playing in the snow; rejoicing that school was closed. No snowballs were thrown.
Click to expand...
Oh, I did. Which was actually quite strange, considering that I was feeding Alzheimer's patients in a nursing home at the end of a dead-end road at the time. One entire wall is made of windows, and I looked out and saw children laughing and sledding down a little hill in the snow (maybe they were all visiting Grandma; I don't know.) Then I took Miss Ruby back to her room and helped to put her to bed. She said, "If I ever get back home, I'll never trouble you any more. I don't mean to put you to so much bother." I gave her a hug and said, "Miss Ruby, you're no bother at all," and saw an old, old black and white studio photograph on the wall of her room. She sat in the front row with marcelled hair at nineteen years old and looked solemnly into the camera, and the ninety-nine-year-old woman on the bed smiled up at me with the glad eyes of a child, and said goodnight.

And HEY!! Don't knock new drugs, parky. For sure, we've got to find something better than Aricept.
 
quarky said:
The slow demise of nomadic cultures makes me nostalgic in a way that I don't 'own' in any way.

My idea of a good vacation is when I get to hike in strange territory, for several days, carrying my creature comforts on my back, and gathering some wild foods on the journey.

Like other nature junkies, I'm willing to pay for the too-brief experience of the hint of what our ancestral consciousness might have been.

Better yet, would be to do this with a group of friends and family; a tribe, for lack of better word.

Of course, this is sort-of phony. I manage to avoid the horrors and hardships of the historical nomads...yet, I'm left envious of the pre-agricultural societies.

When people learned enough to stay put, and reproduce like bunnies; and we discovered repetitious toil, enslavement, stashing of 'wealth', and a host of other dubious gains...well, something precious was lost.

So I ponder:

In an enlightened, more utopian future fantasy, who doesn't imagine the joys of travel and the sense of wonder and discovery?

Is it possible that if we were to consciously evolve, or create, the best possible lives that humans could have on this planet, might we consider the nomadic tribe, with the plus of knowing what sort of population density might allow it's continuation?

Toss in a few technological breakthroughs; some egalitarian attitudes; some hard bought wisdom...

Wouldn't the hunter-gatherer experience be the tits?

As opposed to the star-trekian, matching outfits, titanium coated sci-fi future? With tv dinners coming from a computer driven apparatus, and hybrid yeasts supplying our dietary needs, and things being clean and predictable, with 20 billion moderately satisfied human souls living the ok life?

your thoughts appreciated.

quarky
Click to expand...

It is the champions of the nomad and his/her wilderness (Bruce Chatwin, Jack Turner, Wilfred Thesiger, Thoreau, Nikos Kazantzakis, Goethe, Novalis, Wittgenstein come to mind) who inspire me personally.
The wilderness is not so much a place as a space for them.
This wilderness space is both the inner and outer space we inhabit everyday.
It is the direct experience we have before any abstraction takes place.
It is primitive and yet immensely absorbing.
It is feared and loved with equal measure.
It breeds guilt and sorrow.
It is a challenge for the brave.
 
I'll take the star trek utopia.
Hunter-gather utopia fans: imagine a problem with a root of a tooth and no dental surgeon on the whole planet - what a great fun and maybe dying from an infection.
Thanks, but NO thanks!
 
gambling_cruiser said:
I'll take the star trek utopia.
Hunter-gather utopia fans: imagine a problem with a root of a tooth and no dental surgeon on the whole planet - what a great fun and maybe dying from an infection.
Thanks, but NO thanks!
Click to expand...

So what are you going to die from then. F@ck all?
 
BTW hunter/gatherer lifestyle doesn't support even one billion people, propably less than 200 million for the whole world.
 
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