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Noah's Ark found?

This is not the case. We know that it could not possibly have happened the way believers think it happened unless the fundamental conditions, i..e. the laws of physics, were quite different then than they are now. The creation and disappearance of the water would require miraculous intervention. Furthermore, the gathering of the animals would require miraculous intervention. The care and survival of the animals would require miraculous intervention. The dispersal of the animals would require miraculous intervention. The survival of aquatic species during the flood would require miraculous intervention. The reappearance of plant life would require miraculous intervention. If the "kind" theory is used to get around volume and survival issues on the ark, the rapid evolution of life after the deluge would require miraculous intervention.

I agree. The default position is not "who can say." The default position is that observable facts indicate that miracles would be required to suspend the fundamental laws of how the universe works.
 
Which is odd. The entire book is god demanding people look at him and observe his power. Why wouldn't the bible have mentioned these ego strokes to god if miracles are what it took to pull the thing off?

E.
 
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Brainache said:
Putting together all of his observations, Dr Brand thus came to the conclusion that the configurations and characteristics of the animals trackways made on the submerged sand surfaces most closely resembled the fossilized quadruped trackways of the Coconino Sandstone. Indeed, when the locomotion behaviour of the living amphibians is taken into account, the fossilized trackways can be interpreted as implying that the animals must have been entirely under water (not swimming at the surface) and moving upslope (against the current) in an attempt to get out of the water. This interpretation fits with the concept of a global Flood, which overwhelmed even four-footed reptiles and amphibians that normally spend most of their time in the water.
Even if it is true that these fossilised footprints were formed underwater, why would that be evidence for a global flood 4,000 years ago?

Such tracks do not form under-water... Archimede principle; the creature's apparent weight would not have been enough to imprint the ground.
And, if it was fleeing for it's life, wouldn't it be swimming? It's so much faster and easier (especially for an amphibian) a mean of locomotion when in the water, and it allows you to stay at the surface.
Also, isn't the Grand Canyon itself supposed to have been forming during the flood? What is the scenario here? A flood enough to rip rocks apart, but not enough to wash away some footprints?





The text indicates that water was released as rainfall from the atmosphere, which apparently may not have happened before prior to that moment,

So... No rains? Ever?
How did the plant grow?
It's also likely that all the water would have evaporated living animals with nothing to drink...


and that "the fountains of the deep" were released.
It was not all in any canopy.

What are these funtains you speak of? I mean, outside of the regular cosmology of the Middle-Eastern people of the time?



And any canopy could vary greatly in thickness and density per pressure.

What? No!
The pressure under the canopy would equilibrate itself over time!
If you had any significant different pressure between two bodies of atmosphere, you'd end up with tornado-level winds until the two bodies get close enough!



It's academic at best anyway. Believers do not know. Deniers do not know.
To claim you know how it all was not is as unrealistic as me claiming I know how it was.

Yeah... That's BS.
There are thousands of way the whole story conflict with what we know of geology, physic, botany, geography, biology, genetic, engineering and such...


On the other hand, for it to 'work' you have not only to add many elements to the narrative that are not in the original text (aka, make s*** up) as well as just give the whole story a bunch of passes 'there was a giant water canopy that contradict everything we know of planetary formation and hanged on nobody knows what'; 'the pressure differential didn't kill people instantatly because... it didn't'; 'there were fewer only one species per animal kind and they evolve at incredible speed and everybody carried extra-chromosomes back then, just in case'; 'pathogenic microbes appeared later'.

Honestly, what about you drop the pretense of scientific explanations? I don't understand it and I realize it is impossible by all scientific understanding but, eh, I believe it and God can break the laws of Nature as he sees fit.
It's not only more honest, it also can not be attacked and, he, as the added advantage that you don't have to make stuff up to add to the Bible...
 
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The belief is that a mighty deity created the laws of the universe. And the evidence for that mighty deity is that those laws he created are broken. Makes perfect sense...
 
...At that time in history, there were at least 20 million people alive on the surface of the Earth, and every darned one of them was descended from the same, living, ancestor.

You really believe that? Anyone? Really?

Must have made for a heck of a family reunion. What happened to Noah's wife anyway? Was she only allowed to live a couple hundred years, perhaps from the strain of having a hundred kids? I know, I could look it up in the bible, I'm just not in the mood for fantasy right now.
 
Windows and doors of heaven and fountains of the deep:

syxwj.jpg
 
Windows and doors of heaven and fountains of the deep:

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/syxwj.jpg[/qimg]

That's a pretty picture.
I posted the Mesopotamian cosmology a few times (it is remarkably similar, and I strongly suspect that the Hebrews borrowed it at the same time they borrowed the flood myth and a few others) but the picture was much less pretty.
 
Honestly, what about you drop the pretense of scientific explanations? I don't understand it and I realize it is impossible by all scientific understanding but, eh, I believe it and God can break the laws of Nature as he sees fit.
It's not only more honest, it also can not be attacked and, he, as the added advantage that you don't have to make stuff up to add to the Bible...

When looking up what people had to say about Noah and his millions of living descendants during his lifetime, it was interesting to me that a significant fraction of the sites that discussed this and took it seriously were Jewish. It's not surprising though, in hindsight. Jews aren't generally literalist, but the ones who are are extremely so. The most Orthodox of the Jews live, eat, and breathe Torah. For those who believe it literally, then there is no need to reconcile what Torah says with anything else. It's in the Torah. It happened. QED.

Christians are less insular, and are therefore more generally interested in trying to reconcile the Bible with the real world.

It's a pity that in order to do that, they seem to want to make the real world, and the teachings about that world, conform to their ideology.
 
Why are you trying to "scientifically" explain a miracle, anyway ? Perhaps your faith isn't as strong as you'd have us believe.

Nice try at equivocation. It's obvious you have no understanding of science, and therefore no means of determining truth save for your own gut feelings. I'm sorry for you. You're missing out on a lot of real knowledge. But that doesn't give you the right to claim that no one knows anything just because you're ignorant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LENKIbKCZ_U
 
I pronounce 154's rebuttal to be insurmountable. With his posting of the link to Martin & Lewis' "Blow Me (a Kiss)", he has proven the existence of God, the veracity of the Flood, the depths of his compassionate soul and, of course, his own sanity in one fell swoop.

/withering sarcasm
 

Incredible. You are obviously not interested in any kind of rational discussion; probably because you are unable to. I wonder why you ever bothered to come to this forum in the first place.

Your adverserial attitude makes you immune to all forms of logic. I hope being sheltered in a belief system of your own invention helps you sleep at night.
 
The link I posted yesterday to the article about salamander footprints was, alas, just an abstract, although I did find one of the cited papers elsewhere.

The Creation article didn't wildly and incredibly distort the research, but it definitely falls into the cateqory of missing the point. The summary of the Creation article could be, "These footprints look exactly like the sort of footprints made by salamanders in aquariums, which proves that they were made during a global deluge."

I have to wonder about one thing, though. At the beginning of the Creation article, it asserts that sandstone is formed when sand hardens into stone. Do they have any evidence for that? Is there any reason to believe that that ever happens, under any conditions?

Radrook, (or others) have you ever seen any creationist oriented research about the formation of sandstone or other sedimentary rocks?
 
Radrook, (or others) have you ever seen any creationist oriented research about the formation of sandstone or other sedimentary rocks?
Now you're getting into my bailiwick.

We know how floods deposit rocks. In the nearshore parts of oceans, there are thick deposits of flood-derived rock called "tempestites". These are broken, poorly-sorted rocks because a flood is a very strong and destructive force. This would be especially so in a worldwide flood, because the rains would be eroding areas which had rarely if ever seen floodwaters before and would be easily broken and ripped to pieces. The high slopes would lead to great chunks of rock being carried away. Yes, this sort of thing does happen in very isolated situations.

With a worldwide flood, especially one that covered the mountains for mor than 100 days, you'd see a worldwide, correlatable sequence of storm-deposited rocks. You'd also see, in some locations, the fragments of the cities that had been destroyed. There would also be quite a number of skeletons and other organic debris from all the creatures that had drowned and sunk to the bottom.

It goes without saying that no such "worldwide debris layer" has ever been found. Or anything close to it. Where did this layer go? It couldn't have been eroded, because it had to be eroded TO somewhere. No biblical literalist literature that I have ever seen has ever proposed an explanation for this.

It is almost sad when I hear them trying to explain the Grand Canyon, explaining how it was simultaneously eroded and deposited by the same waters.
 
Now you're getting into my bailiwick.

But you're one of those evolutionary geologists. How do you expect to be taken seriously?

What I was getting at is that the article from Creation talked about the formation of sedimentary rock, like sandstone. I've read a bit about sedimentary rock formation and I was under this crazy impression that one of the key ingredients was time. It seems as if the people from Creation were accepting the notion that sandstone used to be sand, but that it was sand very recently. Are the creation oriented geologists suggesting that somehow being covered with water, possibly very deep water, for a year would turn sand into sandstone? That ought to be an easy enough theory to test.

I was just wondering if the good folks at Creation or any of the creation science research institutes had done any research on the subject of sedimentary rock formation.
 
"I was just wondering if the good folks at Creation or any of the creation science research institutes had done any research on the subject of sedimentary rock formation."

They will say they did, but what they really mean is that they read pamphlets by other creationists.
 
Some posts moved to AAH. Please discuss the issue, not each other.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
There would also be quite a number of skeletons and other organic debris from all the creatures that had drowned and sunk to the bottom.

Maybe they joined the other organisms that died, and turned into oil.

How many people were there back then anyway? 1000? The ocean is a pretty big place to search.

Think of this once. There are LOTS of birds. We know that as a fact. How many have you ever found dead, of natural causes, or saw one crashing back to earth, dying on the way down?
 

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