No Trial for KSM?

[willhaven]

Yes, when it's conspiracy to destroy government buildings with explosives, which is what he was convicted of. That's a bit more serious than, say, sending money to Hamas, don't you think?

I agree. Which is why I think it's irrelevant that all terrorist charges against him were dropped since he is still getting a 20-life sentence. You seem to feel differently.

He was acquitted of all of the terrorism and murder charges.

I just find it interesting that a guy like Ibrahim al Qosi, who plead guilty on conspiracy and material support charges was recommended a more lenient sentence (14 years). Apples and oranges to some degree, but not a stunning example of tribunals being more strict than civilian courts.

I don't nesessarily disagree with this, but I don't think this is the case for most of the detainees. Ghailani was wanted pre-9/11, for example.

We'll see how it shakes out I guess. The part about all of this that bothers me the most is the ire toward the administration for pursuing the civilian system and then complaining about most of the charges being dropped. The charges were dropped because of alleged torture. It wasn't a failure of the civilian system in any respect.

The tribunal process has since been hammered out in the courts. Such challenges are unlikely to be a factor any longer.

With 5 cases I can find and a 6th on the way, I'm not sure I agree. But I guess we'll see how that all shakes out as well.

One thing to note, in 2006 when the tribunal system was revamped, the offenses of material support and conspiracy were now considered war crimes when they weren't before. There are some potential ex post facto issues there with detainees who were captured before that date (Ibrahim al Qosi possibly).

Given a choice between both systems, the safest bet is the civilian system unless the evidence against KSM is very flimsy. I would suspect that we have a strong case.

 

[willhaven]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

I just did a bit of reading on Omar Khadr. Some food for thought.

I knew he plead guilty to "murder in violation of the laws of war, attempted murder in violation of the laws of war, conspiracy, two counts of providing material support for terrorism and spying" but I didn't know the sentence. He was sentenced to 40 years, but because of a plea deal he will serve a total of 8. Meaning one more year in Guantanamo before he is eligible for a possible return to Canada to serve the rest of his sentence there.

He may do less time than Ghailani.

 

[Toontown]

Let KSM go. He has paid his debt to society, having been waterboarded 160 times.

In fact, let them all go after waterboarding each of them 160 times. It's a relatively quick, inexpensive, and humane way to punish them for their their crimes and get rid of them.

It doesn't matter if they go back to terrorism. In fact, we should expect them to do just that. That's why we will have placed tiny homing devices in their bodies, unbeknownst to them. But the next time we accost them, we don't take them alive, having learned our lesson. They will be killed in the ensuing firefight.

Don't worry. The waterboarding won't harm them. Look at KSM's "before" and "after" photos. He looks like short-haired crap warmed over in the "before" shot. But in the "after" shot, he looks wild and wooly, but healthy and beatific.

 

[willhaven]

 

[WildCat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

I just did a bit of reading on Omar Khadr. Some food for thought.

I knew he plead guilty to "murder in violation of the laws of war, attempted murder in violation of the laws of war, conspiracy, two counts of providing material support for terrorism and spying" but I didn't know the sentence. He was sentenced to 40 years, but because of a plea deal he will serve a total of 8. Meaning one more year in Guantanamo before he is eligible for a possible return to Canada to serve the rest of his sentence there.

He may do less time than Ghailani.

That has more to do with diplomatic relations with Canada than it does with the military tribunal system.

Do you even realize the Ghailani trial was a show trial? Even if he had been found not guilty on all counts he would have been sent back to Gitmo.

 

[willhaven]

So Ghailani gets tried in the civilian courts and gets life without parole even though he wasn't even convicted of murder.

This is the Guantanamo military commission track record so far.
[snip]
The next one coming down the pipe, Ibrahim al Qosi, has plead guilty. The military jury at Guantanamo's proposed sentence? 14 years. Less than the minimum sentence in this case. He will probably get credit for time served since 2001. So ~5yr sentence.

Why are military tribunals so great again? Why is the idea of the civilian system for terrorists dead?

Bin Laden cook Qosi sentenced to two years in prison

The US military has reduced to two years the prison sentence of Osama Bin Laden's former cook and driver.

Sudanese-born Ibrahim al-Qosi had admitted to conspiracy and providing support for terrorism.

Qosi, who was detained in Afghanistan in 2001 and is now at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, was sentenced last August to 14 years in prison.

An adviser to the military commission that tried him said Qosi had complied with unspecified terms of a plea deal.

According to military commission documents seen by the BBC, Qosi can expect to be released in July 2012, nearly 11 years after his capture by US forces after fleeing an al-Qaeda hide-out in Afghanistan's Tora Bora mountains.

'Constantly praying'

In a guilty plea before a US military commission at the US Navy base at Guantanamo Bay in July, Qosi admitted running a kitchen in Bin Laden's compound while being aware that al-Qaeda was a terrorist organisation.

He also admitted working as Bin Laden's bodyguard and helping him avoid capture by US forces.

Meanwhile, in a plea for clemency sent to the military commission, Qosi's elderly parents in Sudan said they were "living with the hope that one day we will see him return, and we do not have much more left to live".

They said Qosi would be given the job of running the family's store in Atira, Sudan, and described the "strong support network" available to him.

"We constantly pray to God that we would live long enough to see him return home, and not die before seeing him," they wrote in Arabic, according to an English translation prepared by Qosi's military lawyers.

There are some instances where a tribunal must be used, but it seems as though there is no reason we should be using it over the civilian system. The civilian system seems faster, has a longer history of precedent without the legal challenges that have plagued the tribunal system and, most importantly, it has a higher conviction rate, higher standards of evidence and has a history of averaging harsher sentences.