• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

No Trial for KSM?

Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
630
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/12/AR2010111207508.html

Cliffnotes version:

1) Too much political opposition to trial
2) WH worried left won't approve of a military tribunal
3) Solution: Hold KSM indefinitely without trial

Problem with that?

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...nd-boost-terrorist-recruitment-107938729.html

As Byron York writes:

In June 2008, candidate Obama exchanged criticisms with Sen. John McCain over the war on terrorism. "It is my firm belief that we can track terrorists, we can crack down on threats against the United States, but we can do so within the constraints of our Constitution," Obama told ABC's Jake Tapper. "Let's take the example of Guantanamo. What we know is that, in previous terrorist attacks -- for example, the first attack against the World Trade Center, we were able to arrest those responsible, put them on trial. They are currently in U.S. prisons, incapacitated."

Obama continued:

And the fact that the administration has not tried to do that has created a situation where not only have we never actually put many of these folks on trial, but we have destroyed our credibility when it comes to rule of law all around the world, and given a huge boost to terrorist recruitment in countries that say, "Look, this is how the United States treats Muslims."

And now we have a situation in which Obama, after nearly two years as commander-in-chief, is reportedly planning to continue the indefinite detention of KSM -- no charges, no trial. The obvious choice would be to try KSM by military tribunal at Gitmo, but that would alienate liberal supporters. So Obama is ready to approve a policy choice that he said would destroy American credibility and boost terrorist recruitment in the Muslim world. Is that what his supporters really want?
 
So Obama is ready to approve a policy choice that he said would destroy American credibility and boost terrorist recruitment in the Muslim world. Is that what his supporters really want?
Campaign rhetoric meets reality.
 
He had a bunch of idiot supporters who bought all the nonsense about him closing GITMO, handling terrorism as a legal matter, ending the wars, etc. So he tells them what they want to hear, knowing that they will forgive him in the end because after all, he's not Bushhitler.
 
The president's own party chose not to back him up on the issue.

Everyone in NY, a very blue state, is against it.

It seems like a military tribunal would be better than no trial at all though.
 
So Obama won't stand up for what he supposedly believes in if he fears it will hurt him politically. Huge shocker.
 
Not using the civilian justice system to try potential terrorists is a big mistake.
 
Not using the civilian justice system to try potential terrorists is a big mistake.
Sure, if your goal is to have a judge ordering the suspects free because the military didn't use search warrants, give Miranda rights, etc.
 
um...why can't we put KSM on trial in some backwater town in the Mid-West?

we need to put this man on trial. history deserves it and demands it. so do the souls of 3,000 people.
 
Not using the civilian justice system to try potential terrorists is a big mistake.

It might be a big mistake to use civilian trials:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-guantanamo-trial-20101116,0,55324.story

"The first trial of a foreign terror suspect from the Guantanamo detention facility may be deadlocked as a juror on Monday asked the judge if she could be dismissed, saying she felt "attacked" by the other 11 on the panel for being the lone holdout.

U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan declined to dismiss the juror and ordered the panel to return to deliberations and try to reach a unanimous verdict in the murder and conspiracy trial of alleged Al Qaeda collaborator Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani."
 
They don’t want a trial for KSM because it will come out that the Israelis were monitoring his activities and meetings with the hijackers here in the US months before 9/11.
 
It might be a big mistake to use civilian trials:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-guantanamo-trial-20101116,0,55324.story

"The first trial of a foreign terror suspect from the Guantanamo detention facility may be deadlocked as a juror on Monday asked the judge if she could be dismissed, saying she felt "attacked" by the other 11 on the panel for being the lone holdout.

U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan declined to dismiss the juror and ordered the panel to return to deliberations and try to reach a unanimous verdict in the murder and conspiracy trial of alleged Al Qaeda collaborator Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani."

Yup. All it takes is one.
 
The president's own party chose not to back him up on the issue.

Everyone in NY, a very blue state, is against it.

It seems like a military tribunal would be better than no trial at all though.
That is because a poorly thought out decision to hold the trial in NYC was mentioned.
 
Sure, if your goal is to have a judge ordering the suspects free because the military didn't use search warrants, give Miranda rights, etc.
>90% conviction rate for potential terrorists in the civilian system. Hundreds tried in the civilian system since 9/11. Easily over 100 incarcerated (mostly in Colorado IIRC).

Of the handful tried in military tribunals since 9/11, most are now free men.

The civilian system is a lot faster, has tried more cases, has a higher conviction rate and sometimes gives out harsher sentences than tribunals.

To my knowledge, the only reason a tribunal is better is if the evidence you have against the person is somewhat flimsy or if you simply want to keep them detained indefinitely with very little evidence.
 
>90% conviction rate for potential terrorists in the civilian system. Hundreds tried in the civilian system since 9/11. Easily over 100 incarcerated (mostly in Colorado IIRC).
It's fine, for terrorists captured and processed by police agencies, particularly domestic cases. No so much for those with whom we are at war against, who are captured by our or allied military or intelligence agencies.

>To my knowledge, the only reason a tribunal is better is if the evidence you have against the person is somewhat flimsy or if you simply want to keep them detained indefinitely with very little evidence.
Or they were not captured according to civilian law enforcement rules, or if we don't want to be forced to reveal sources and methods in open court or to defense attorneys.

Trying enemy combatants for war crimes in civilian courts is unprecedented, at least in the US.

There may be a few cases where there is enough legitimately gathered evidence (and by this I mean by conventional civilian law enforcement) to try in a civilian court, but I doubt more than a handful of the Gitmo detainees fit that criteria.
 
Or they were not captured according to civilian law enforcement rules, or if we don't want to be forced to reveal sources and methods in open court or to defense attorneys.
That's what CIPA is for.


Trying enemy combatants for war crimes in civilian courts is unprecedented, at least in the US.

There may be a few cases where there is enough legitimately gathered evidence (and by this I mean by conventional civilian law enforcement) to try in a civilian court, but I doubt more than a handful of the Gitmo detainees fit that criteria.
Really? 9/11/01-6/2/2009 have seen 289 defendants tried by US courts.

In the case of KSM, it almost directly mirrors the WTC bombing trials with Ramzi Yousef. Same type of crime, same location, they were arrested in the same country by some of the same types of foreign and federal agencies (IIRC). Hell, KSM and Yousef are even related. Yousef was convicted in a US court and has been hanging out behind bars in Colorado for over a decade now. You don't get a more analogous example than that.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/cases.php

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/prosecute/
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/pdf/090723-LS-in-pursuit-justice-09-update.pdf
 
Last edited:
Let's not forget that KSM was water-boarded 183 times in five sessions while in custody. How will civilian courts handle that?
 
Really? 9/11/01-6/2/2009 have seen 289 defendants tried by US courts.
How many of those 289 were members of groups subject to the AUMF? That is the only relevant metric here, not some biker gang member who put a pipe bomb in a rival biker gang's clubhouse.
 
Let's not forget that KSM was water-boarded 183 times in five sessions while in custody. How will civilian courts handle that?

KSM admitted his involvement with 9-11 long before he was captured.

I think the water-boarding was just a little CIA fun.

:o
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom