No Fly zones over Libya?

fuelair said:
:D UN gave kill authority - anything moving east that looks like an unfriendly is a target from the air!! That is how to fight - make them beware our skill set, don't go where they can use theirs.:D:D:D
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This is true, but eventually Khadaffi wil have dead babies to parade in front of the cameras.
 
WildCat said:
Who do you think has more resolve, Khadaffi or the UN? Now, if a bomb should happen to fall on Khadaffi...
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...it would be an "accident". The world would get over it. Except a few pouting, posturing "Leftists" who would call it a war crime or something.

Anyway, what is with firing guns in the air in celebration?

As much fun as I'm sure it no doubt is to spray the air with AK-47 rounds, these rounds presumably come down somewhere so why do it in crowded areas. Besides, isn't conserving ammunition going to be something of a priority if there is a protracted fight between Gaddafi's men and the rebels?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12781009
 
angrysoba said:
...it would be an "accident". The world would get over it. Except a few pouting, posturing "Leftists" who would call it a war crime or something.

Anyway, what is with firing guns in the air in celebration?

As much fun as I'm sure it no doubt is to spray the air with AK-47 rounds, these rounds presumably come down somewhere so why do it in crowded areas. Besides, isn't conserving ammunition going to be something of a priority if there is a protracted fight between Gaddafi's men and the rebels?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12781009
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Agreed. You don't waste ammo in a situation like this.
Apparently shooting guns into the air is a Arab custom of celebration, sort of like fireworks, though It was meant to be done with muzzle loaders, not automatic rifles....
BUt the arab don't have a monopoly on it. Cowboys hurrahing a Cattle Town at the end of the drive had the same custom....
 
dudalb said:
Agreed. You don't waste ammo in a situation like this.
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I was really surprised to see some of the guys manning the AA guns mounted on pickups doing this. You'd think they'd particularly be wanting to conserve ammo.
 
"If the world gets crazy, we will get crazy,"
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I actually like that quote. I wish we could just stop getting crazy about this murky but passion-ravaged situation. But I don't think that's in the cards, and that line is a nail in the coffin.
 
Virus said:
Yesssssss! The world stands up to a bully!
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Perhaps that's the benefit of this going through the UN, so we can say 'the world stands up'. It deprives Gadaffi of a propaganda victory in which he can say that just the US imperialists are attacking.
 
dudalb said:
Agreed. You don't waste ammo in a situation like this.
Apparently shooting guns into the air is a Arab custom of celebration, sort of like fireworks, though It was meant to be done with muzzle loaders, not automatic rifles....
BUt the arab don't have a monopoly on it. Cowboys hurrahing a Cattle Town at the end of the drive had the same custom....
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They do that a lot - whenever there's a camera around, anyway. I read it as they're immature and not ready - someone's rushing things for some reason. They also slaughter helpless prisoners, and. I think, blame other such on Gaddafi, which we buy without question. But they need their rights to take over the whole country protected.

The ones rushing are probably European, and concerned about how to get Libya's oil without dealing with Gaddafi any longer.

Anyone else concerned with the rampant conflation of armed rebels/militant/protesters/civilians in the media, vis-a-vis the language authorizing air strikes to protect civilians? Doesn't this just make the UN enforcers of one side's cause in a very murky war?

Well, it's not Vietnam, they think. A few million in empty desert, easy stuff with air power. We'll just have to do it all at once, nice and clean. As soon as the first bomb falls it's too late to turn back. This just pisses me off. Not a single "no" vote to this panicked and ill-informed escalation.
 
WildCat said:
Who do you think has more resolve, Khadaffi or the UN? Now, if a bomb should happen to fall on Khadaffi...
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Oh, Gadaffi, since he's largely bonkers.
However, how much resolve do you think his largely mercenary army has in the face of airstrikes?
How much do you think they will be able to take before they decide the pay isn't worth it?
 
Caustic Logic said:
They do that a lot - whenever there's a camera around, anyway. I read it as they're immature and not ready - someone's rushing things for some reason. They also slaughter helpless prisoners, and. I think, blame other such on Gaddafi, which we buy without question. But they need their rights to take over the whole country protected.

The ones rushing are probably European, and concerned about how to get Libya's oil without dealing with Gaddafi any longer.

Anyone else concerned with the rampant conflation of armed rebels/militant/protesters/civilians in the media, vis-a-vis the language authorizing air strikes to protect civilians? Doesn't this just make the UN enforcers of one side's cause in a very murky war?

Well, it's not Vietnam, they think. A few million in empty desert, easy stuff with air power. We'll just have to do it all at once, nice and clean. As soon as the first bomb falls it's too late to turn back. This just pisses me off. Not a single "no" vote to this panicked and ill-informed escalation.
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I'm sure Gadaffi would love the world to believe "they're immature and not ready" but the point is that Gadaffi has behaved in such an atrocious manner that bad manners and "immaturity" notwithstanding, no one deserves to put up with him as a ruler anymore.

I think that morally "our" (as in the West) stance should be that he is as hindered as possible in resuming his control over those of "his" people that have had enough. We know already, because Gadaffi has told us, what lies in store for those who have disobeyed him if he regains control over them.

You seem to be pissed off about something or other but the only thing that pisses me off is that we don't apply the same thing to Bahrain and even Saudi Arabia that we do to Gadaffi's Libya. It's about time we swept away this garbage.
 
Tolls said:
Oh, Gadaffi, since he's largely bonkers.
However, how much resolve do you think his largely mercenary army has in the face of airstrikes?
How much do you think they will be able to take before they decide the pay isn't worth it?
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I am quite looking forward to Chavez wading into this by offering Gadaffi a mansion somewhere outside of Caracas. Some people might not see it as justice for Gadaffi to escape with his life but as long as he's out of there I don't care too much.
 
Tolls said:
Oh, Gadaffi, since he's largely bonkers.
However, how much resolve do you think his largely mercenary army has in the face of airstrikes?
How much do you think they will be able to take before they decide the pay isn't worth it?
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While there are foreign mercenaries, the great bulk of fighters are from Khadaffi's tribe or allied tribes. This is a tribal war.
 
angrysoba said:
You seem to be pissed off about something or other but the only thing that pisses me off is that we don't apply the same thing to Bahrain and even Saudi Arabia that we do to Gadaffi's Libya. It's about time we swept away this garbage.
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I don't know about Bahrain, but if the Saudi monarchy was overthrown whatever replaces it would likely make Iran look moderate by comparison. Nothing but bad choices there.
 
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WildCat said:
I don't know about Bahrain, but if the Saudi monarchy was overthrown whatever replaces it would likley make Iran look moderate by comparison. Nothing but bad choices there.
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To be honest I think Saudi already makes Iran look moderate by comparison. I detest the Iranian theocracy but the Saudi theocracy is even more stifling and disgusting in its intolerance. The Sauds have been talking for a while about the opening up of the country and the gradual liberalization but I'm yet to see it happen. Perhaps the only saving grace of the country is that it is so utterly backward that it has no idea what to do with its cash. Iran, by contrast, is a worrisome country - or at least it has a worrisome government - because it is technologically quite advanced.
 
fuelair said:
:D UN gave kill authority - anything moving east that looks like an unfriendly is a target from the air!! That is how to fight - make them beware our skill set, don't go where they can use theirs.:D:D:D
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Your description worryingly reminds me of Operation Rolling Thunder: The use of air power to persuade the enemy to surrender, without the military power to force that outcome should he refuse to cooperate.

Success of this operation requires one of two things:
1) For Gaddafi's forces to simply give up in the face of air strikes. They may or may not, but any plan that allows your enemy the final decision is a bad idea.
2) For the rebels to defeat the pro-Gaddafi forces. Without succumbing to infighting, massacres of civilians in pro-Gaddafi towns, or anything else that could screw them up. Again they may or may not, but any plan that depends for success or faillure on a poorly trained, poorly disciplined and poorly equiped ally is a recipe for disaster.

And keep in mind the rebels lack forward air control to make the most of western air support.
 
egslim said:
Your description worryingly reminds me of Operation Rolling Thunder: The use of air power to persuade the enemy to surrender, without the military power to force that outcome should he refuse to cooperate.
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I don't see this as comparable to Rolling Thunder at all. The problem with Rolling Thunder was that every target (even targets of opportunity) had to be approved by the White House, and the frequent breaks in air strikes intended to give Hanoi a chance to sue for peace instead simply gave them time to rebuild, move assets, and beef up air defenses. I've seen interviews with North Vietnam military brass who couldn't believe how foolish that strategy was, in fact they were close to suing for peace early on before they realized they could game this to their own advantage.
 
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