No Explosives Here?

OP response VII

NIST:

"Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues?" . . ."NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel."
-- NIST Responses to FAQs, August 2006

In follow-up to this response NIST spokesperson Michael Neuman was challenged by Hartford Advocate reporter Jennifer Abel on this glaring omission in the WTC report

ABEL: … what about that letter where NIST said it didn’t look for evidence of explosives?

NEUMAN: Right, because there was no evidence of that.

ABEL: But how can you know there’s no evidence if you don’t look for it first?

NEUMAN: If you’re looking for something that isn’t there, you’re wasting your time….and the taxpayers money."

This omission is at odds with the requirement of the national standard for fire investigation (NFPA 921), which calls for testing related to thermite and other pyrotechnics. It is also at odds with the video evidence of explosions, and the testimony of fire department personnel, more than 100 of whom officially reported hearing or seeing explosions. NIST also failed to explain the source of large quantities of molten metal in the WTC rubble, or the abundant amounts of iron microspheres in the dust.

I'll let others discuss this misuse of NFPA 921, but do a search in this forum for that term. In short, it's improper to cite it here.

And let's also remember that chemical testing for explosives has the strong potential to be inconclusive. How would there be any chance of distinguishing between explosives remains and naturally occuring organic materials combustoin residue from the fires themselves?

Furthermore, explosives are contradicted for other reasons. See links above, and search this forum for past threads.

NIST, as a matter of routine, should have tested the WTC dust for residue of explosives, such as nanothermite. The Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations put out by the National Fire Protection Association says that a search for evidence for explosives should be undertaken whenever there has been “high-order damage.” Leaving no doubt about the meaning of this term, the Guide says:

High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. [27]

Is it also characterized by extremely loud sounds that would have the effect of shattering glass for blocks around - recall, a common preparatory procedure for actual explosives demolitions is to board up or otherwise protect (or remove) glass in neighboring buildings. Look at pictures of the Winter Garden's building across the street from the WTC complex for proof that no explosions occurred; what windows were broken were from falling debris. Explosions strong enough to drop the towers would have shattered all that glass.

Furthermore, it is a practice to remove people from the area in order to prevent injury from flying debris as well as barotrauma. For the latter, I've not found any studies indicating any numbers of barotraumatic injuries consistent with an explosion of even the size of the Madrid bombings or Israeli bus bombings, let alone for something as large what would be required for collapsing the Twin Towers, or even just 7 World Trade.

On top of that, you need to study the failure modes for the recovered steel components in NCSTAR 1-3C. None of them are consistent with explosives or incendiaries use.

That description applied to the destruction of the Twin Towers and WTC 7. The next sentence – “Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet” – applied to the destruction of the Twin Towers, a fact that NIST had to admit in order to explain how fires were started in WTC 7. [28] So NIST should have looked for signs of explosives, such as nanothermite.

*last bit from, http://rockcreekfreepress.tumblr.com/post/98195547/scientists-find-explosives-in-world-trade-center-dust

just for a start.

If you study the legitimate research on nanothermite, you'll see that it's explosive properties are on the microscopic scale. For example, to force drugs past cell membranes. Or to achieve some result in the manufacture of microchips. Stating that nanothermite has high order explosive ability on the magnitude claimed here is unsupported.

On top of that, as pointed out earlier, all evidence contradicts the presence of explosives.
 
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Everything atavisms has said for the pass couple of days can be sumed up as "When I look at the towers and WTC7 I think it looks like a CD, which is proof enough for me that it was". When ever he is asked for proof he will either post a link to some one else who thinks it "doesn't look right", or restate that all we have to do to see the evidence of CD is to "just look at the dust".

atavisms your "just look at it" debating tactic will never work here (many have tried), and it seems that nothing we say will ever convince you. What do you have to prove to us, why are you here? Can we skip this whole point less game and just agree to disaree?
 
OP response - Conclusion

Much of what was said in the OP were merely restatements of myths which have made their appearance in this forum before. You need to resesarch the claims put forth by Jones (both Alex and Steven), DRG, and the others using proper i.e. non conspiracy peddling sources. Start with the ones others in this forum have complied at this link :
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/local_links.php?catid=18

Continue on with the standard sites we always refer back to:
In summary: Explosives and incendiaries are contradicted by all existing evidence. The evidence that is forwarded by conspiracy peddlers has been shown to be either misinterpretation, misrepresentation, cargo cult science, or outright mistruths. None of the material you have presented overcomes the weight of the evidence demonstrating that the towers were not felled by "controlled demolitions" (just as an aside, the industry term is "explosive demolitions") or unconventional methods (i.e. incendiaries like thermite).
 
Any bets againt atavisms not reading all that info?

He might, he might not. Matters little to me. I post for those who care to be informed and want the facts refuting the proffered myths. If that includes atavisms, then great. If not, oh well. Regardless, the info might help somebody out there. Who it helps just depends on whether any readers choose to analyze things critically or not.
 
He might, he might not. Matters little to me. I post for those who care to be informed and want the facts refuting the proffered myths. If that includes atavisms, then great. If not, oh well. Regardless, the info might help somebody out there. Who it helps just depends on whether any readers choose to analyze things critically or not.

Well I, for one, appreciate your efforts. Well done (again) Mondo.
 
Much of what was said in the OP were merely restatements of myths which have made their appearance in this forum before. You need to resesarch the claims put forth by Jones (both Alex and Steven), DRG, and the others using proper i.e. non conspiracy peddling sources. Start with the ones others in this forum have complied at this link :
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/local_links.php?catid=18


Continue on with the standard sites we always refer back to:
In summary: Explosives and incendiaries are contradicted by all existing evidence. The evidence that is forwarded by conspiracy peddlers has been shown to be either misinterpretation, misrepresentation, cargo cult science, or outright mistruths. None of the material you have presented overcomes the weight of the evidence demonstrating that the towers were not felled by "controlled demolitions" (just as an aside, the industry term is "explosive demolitions") or unconventional methods (i.e. incendiaries like thermite).

You gave out the answers. Will the poster of lies/myths insist on remaining deep in the pit of 911 ignorance?
 
How about page one
Originally Posted by MikeW
Originally Posted by atavisms
Despite this intense and prolonged (2 years) search, and the use of advanced DNA recovery techniques, there remains almost 1100 people completely unaccounted for. -No discernible trace was found!

Misleading. The reality is that Shaler (the man behind the identification project) has access to many remains that he can't identify because of the condition they were in.
You know his name Im impressed,,(not)
Listen genius I should have written 'No discernible genetic trace was found!
would that make you happier? 10,000 so badly mangled pieces that dna analysis cannot even be done on them?
This sounds correct to you I guess? I mean considering the level of redundancy designed into them vs the gravitational potential of these 3 super highrise building? wtc towers were 1350' tall. All the cold hard steel in the towers beneath the crash points are just unzipping and blowing out 100s of feet from gravity.

There were 2600 people in 1&2 buildings (less the plane victims), upper floors have lots of structural damage, raging fires (in the case NTower impact was approx 15 fls from the roof) it's spread out over a number of floors.
(note: The greatest impact from the mass of commercial airliner would be seen in the fuel and in the engines in that order, so all along the wing.)
So it collapses from gravity and we end up with tens of thousands of body parts, femur's found blocks away? massive destruction of 1&2, 7's neat little pile. All at virtually freefall speed.
I cannot see natural events here, not even close.

Your Reply:"This is deceptive! bc 10k pieces are so badly mangled they cannot be tested" Way to take a point


Quote:
But in many cases DNA was also damaged or destroyed. In initial tests, researchers found that fire

"Fire" You see those towers roasting there? Towering infernos is it? It was 56 and 102 min, w/ fires on upper floors.
which were blown to hell and then burned underground for months,
Originally Posted by McHrozni
Originally Posted by atavisms
My understanding is that thermite burns rather quickly. What was it exactly that was burning at ground zero for 99 days?
Your understanding is correct, and shows, quite conclusively, it wasn't thermite.

Im sorry, the question was 'What was it exactly that was burning at ground zero for 99 days?'
Originally Posted by funk de fino
Originally Posted by atavisms
(*What Popular Mechanics tries unsuccessfully to use to 'debunk' the claim that the structural steel, in fact, had not been shipped directly from Ground Zero to overseas recyclers. (it was- check it out if you know how)
That is a lie


I only lived it and read about it daily in the newspaper when protests were going in here in ny, while they were still burying the hundreds of firefighters murdered that day. Families protesting, little kids standing with signs saying, "My Daddy Is Not Garbage" as authorities (looking to keep those job..oh yah) rushed to clear the sites. Lied about the air quality in lower Manhattan, etc.
The firefighters were not even done looking for their brothers, they practically rioted one day w/Bloomberg going 'You don't need the steel to study what happened. That is done in computers.'

That must be what you believe.. The sad miserable facts are otherwise. Only one wtc steel tells one story.. Unfortunately for the perpetrators there is also a mountain of highly damning evidence they left behind/ It shows their arrogance (and use of some kind of explosives)

A good exercise to try is, just within yourself, argue your opponents perspective. Once you have taken a 'side' you have lost your objectivity.
There are no sides in any quest for truth, like we see with science.
Check Brent Blanchards paper about the investigation of the steel from the WTC.

tx. Ill check it out
 
This sounds correct to you I guess? I mean considering the level of redundancy designed into them vs the gravitational potential of these 3 super highrise building?

If you're aluding to safety factors in structural design them I'm going to call you on it; evidence, calculations, and sources please.


wtc towers were 1350' tall. All the cold hard steel in the towers beneath the crash points are just unzipping and blowing out 100s of feet from gravity.

Argument from incredulity. Not relevant.
That must be what you believe.. The sad miserable facts are otherwise. Only one wtc steel tells one story.. Unfortunately for the perpetrators there is also a mountain of highly damning evidence they left behind/ It shows their arrogance (and use of some kind of explosives)

Really? Well, I've yet to see it.
 
what could have been done to satisfy yours if they were your children?

If I thought that there was any slight hope no matter how small that they survived then I would want them to look for them first and worry about the crime scene later. Which is exactly what they did.

Let me flip that question around. If you're ever trapped in a collapsed building what would you want them to have primarily in their mind, preserving the evidence or locating and pulling your butt out of the rubble?

Lets game that out shall we?

Me: I think that atavisms is trapped down there. *points to a tangle of rubble*

Crime Scene Investigator (CSI): I'm sorry, but we can't disturb the crime scene until we've taken a bunch of pictures, sampled the dust and tagged the beams sitting on the access to him. Before we can do that we have to make a grid so we can recreate the area.

Me: No you idiots, atavisms needs help now or he's gonna die!

CSI: We have procedures sir, now please step back.

Me: Why is a crime scene more important that saving atavisms life?

CSI: Because atavisms would like it that way.

*atavisms dies*

CSI: We meant because atavisms would've like it that way. But hey, we know that he died from being trapped in a collapsed building, so we have that going for us...
 
How about addressing the issues? ANY OF THEM
The fact that you must focus on such a trivial thing only shows how weak your position is.

but thank you for pointing it out, I was writing from memory
I do see many PhD's involved in 911 Truth and obviously f'd up, my bad.



Handwaving noted.

You are the one who LIED about the credentials of his boss. You LIED about where he worked.

What issues? That you LIED in order to make some twoofer sound better? That ranks up there with the MIT engineer who says the towers shouldn't collapse that way... only to find out he is an ELECTRONICAL ENGINEER. Oops... Or waterboy Kevin Ryan talking about steel framing assemblies, when he works for a water inspection company... or my favoriate PhD of them all... David Ray Griffin. You know, the theologian.

unless GOD did it, then he is way outside of his speciality and beyond his depth.

try again after you apologize for LYING about the qualifications.
 
...
(note: The greatest impact from the mass of commercial airliner would be seen in the fuel and in the engines in that order, so all along the wing.)
So it collapses from gravity and we end up with tens of thousands of body parts, femur's found blocks away? massive destruction of 1&2, 7's neat little pile. All at virtually freefall speed.
I cannot see natural events here, not even close.

"Fire" You see those towers roasting there? Towering infernos is it? It was 56 and 102 min, w/ fires on upper floors.
which were blown to hell and then burned underground for months,

Im sorry, the question was 'What was it exactly that was burning at ground zero for 99 days?'


...
tx. Ill check it out

The impacts of the Jets were 1300 and 2093 pounds of TNT kinetic energy events. The fall of the towers due to gravity alone were 130 TONS of TNT kinetic energy events.

130 TONS of TNT! IN EACH tower! This much kinetic energy is equal to 130 2,000 pound bombs. This what destroyed the WTC complex.

The primary energy source in CD is GRAVITY. Do you understand CD looks like a gravity collapse because gravity is the primary source of destruction in a real CD.

Neat little pile over 19 acres; do you have clue the size of the foot print of the WTC towers?

Do you understand steel in insulated so it can stand up to fire for a couple hours if the fires can't be fought so the people can get out? This means on 911 the steel fire proofing was dislodged, destroyed, messed up, and thus the steel would fail in minutes.

The fires burned for months because there was over 220 floors, 220 acres of office junk confined to 5 stories of rubble and oxygen deprived? I can burn much less material for much longer by regulating the air source; I do it every winter to heat my house. You need to get a grasp on practical reality, this is not the matrix or a fantasy.

Are you trying to say the chief structural engineer must be an idiot since he thinks the impacts and fires precipitated the gravity collapse.
http://www.nae.edu/Publications/TheBridge/Archives/V32-1EngineeringandHomelandSecurity.aspx Read more about what Robertson thinks.
 
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way to address the topic there Scott
- my point was that we dont any authority to us the obvious.
(besides, we all know what a PhD is worth, never more than the character of the person whose name is on it)
That you do not (or possibly cannot) come to the same conclusion looking at the same material and yet not be able to express why and then pick on some trivial point (Harrit's creds) and now resort to ad hominem attacks all show how weak your position is.

1. It helps when you write complete sentences. YOu know. Subject, verb and objects in the same sentence.
2. I will take the NIST report and over 50 peer reviewed scientific papers vs what twoofs have... which is self publishing a bogus journal (JONES) and vanity journals any day of the week.
3. YOU BROUGHT UP HARRITS CREDS. You tried to pass off a LIE and hope no one would call you on it. His CREDS SUCK.
4. You have continually brought up debunked crap. Do 5 minutes of investagoogling (maybe read the 2nd page from time to time)
 

You have been directed repeatedly to
1. wtc7 damaged adjacent buildings. How does a building symmetrically fall and hit buildings on opposite sides of it? One of them ON THE FREAKING ROOF?
2. Prove that explosives capable of cutting the steel are silent.
3. Prove that nanothermite/thermite/thermate can cut horizontally through steel
4. Provide any video with explosions
5. Provide proof that thermal expansion is unknown idea to structural engineers.

handwave coming, and massive dodge is coming in 5.4.3.2....
 
I love stupid, ignorant truthrs.

(*actually 'it wasnt really a textbook implosion bc there were not loud separate booms like yuo would normally hear'
Look he learns

obviously it wasn't nearly as explosive.
we can the neat rubble pile on7, and the debris field and smoldering craters on 1&2 - The regulation can clearly be applied to either structure
oops.. no he doesn't. How is this a "neat rubble pile?"
171-0623093048-wtc7-debris.jpg

you may want to note that the roads on 2 sides of that have been cleared.

How is this part of a neat pile?
911_HighQualityPhotos7784.jpg

That is Fitermann hall, the building RIGHT NEXT TO WTC7, which was HIT by WTC7 on the FREAKING roof.

Is this a neat pile?
911_HighQualityPhotos7783.jpg

or this one is better
911_HighQualityPhotos7782.jpg


2: The fact that they found some intact wall board or concrete does not explain what else they found..
some? Nice handwave. You should actually LOOK at the pictures. Most of the concrete was still there.. what was powdered was drywall and ceiling tiles.

Someone can now say, 'there were no smoldering pits of fire that would not go out bc warners bros pieces and numerous basement spaces (doesnt gravity drive thing down) were found intact.' Both are true. and that is a small part of how this division works.

Again, subject, verb and objects ar your friends. I think you are trying to ask about the fires in the piles... it is called an underground fire (look them up), with massive tunnels and any opening in the pile it would let AIR in. If there is air, it will then burn.

These were massive spaces, the tallest buildings of their day, 'over-designed and highly redundant.'

here comes the skilling quote about 707's and multiple jet impacts....
Of course I prefer leslie Robertsons quotes...
 
what could have been done to satisfy yours if they were your children?

appeal to emotion. Go back to school twoof. Try to learn something.

if they were my kids or my family? I lost several friends on 9/11. And I'm very satisfied with the forensic examinations done.

How many firefighters who were there on 9/11 have signed up for the truth movement sparky? Huh?
 
Hey Ata,

Where do you think all the contents of the two towers went?? You think there might have been enough stuff in those towers to fuel a smoldering fire for 99 days??

I bet so.

Oh, aand don't forget the cars and such in the basement, and the firetrucks, and the ambulances, etc.etc.etc. that the ******* building fell on.

Those can burn for quite some time, I assure you.
 
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As someone who lived through the events in Manhattan, saw the streets littered with body parts and lost two good friends, I find it difficult to fathom where all this hate comes from.

After ignoring my questions in this thread, I asked Atavisms via PMs who his freinds were., his response:

what the f%^&$ business of yours is that?

I explain:

The names of all victims are a matter of public record. You wouldn't be telling me anything that we can't find out.

I'd just like to know which of the victims of 9/11 were your friends and how you knew them.

He replies:

I could tell you a lot you couldnt find out *******. Just like you could me.

Ativisms lied about having friends who died on 9/11. Presumably to give himself Cindy Sheehan-like emotional sledgehammer that he could use to bludgeon us with. Revolting and disgusting behavior, but pretty much what we've come to expect from twoofers.
 
I wouldn't say he lied, but more he is being dishonest. Maybe he did know some people, but they weren't victims, but more like witnesses.
 

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