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no Darwin, no Hitler

Lonewulf said:
Yes, after all, we all know that all Jews burn buildings and commit acts of terrorism.
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And of course we all know that Muslims are no more likely to engage in, support, or tolerate terrorism than any other religious or ethnic group, or the rest of the world population at large.
 
BPSCG said:
And of course we all know that Muslims are no more likely to engage in, support, or tolerate terrorism than any other religious or ethnic group, or the rest of the world population at large.
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You know, people used to say exactly the same thing about Catholics, during the worst days of the Irish "Troubles." People used to say the same thing about Protestants during the tumultuous Reformation. People say the same thing about atheists in Sri Lanka (The Tamil Tigers are Marxists, and reject religion). Islamic extremists are the current #1 religiously modivated terrorists, but there's no shortage of contenders.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
You know, people used to say exactly the same thing about Catholics, during the worst days of the Irish "Troubles." People used to say the same thing about Protestants during the tumultuous Reformation. People say the same thing about atheists in Sri Lanka (The Tamil Tigers are Marxists, and reject religion). Islamic extremists are the current #1 religiously modivated terrorists, but there's no shortage of contenders.
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You could say the same about the jews as well with the bombing of the king david hotel and the like.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
You know, people used to say exactly the same thing about Catholics, during the worst days of the Irish "Troubles." People used to say the same thing about Protestants during the tumultuous Reformation. People say the same thing about atheists in Sri Lanka (The Tamil Tigers are Marxists, and reject religion). Islamic extremists are the current #1 religiously modivated terrorists, but there's no shortage of contenders.
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The most striking difference between the Islamists and the other terrorists being that the other terrorists didn't make targets their terror on anyone, anywhere in the world who wasn't them. The IRA didn't blow up buses in Barcelona, and the Basque terrorists don't blow up pubs in Londonderry. People like to mock Bush's, "You're either with us, or with the terrorists," statement, but the Islamists go much farther. They say, "You either are us, or we will kill you."
 
BPSCG said:
The most striking difference between the Islamists and the other terrorists being that the other terrorists didn't make targets their terror on anyone, anywhere in the world who wasn't them. The IRA didn't blow up buses in Barcelona, and the Basque terrorists don't blow up pubs in Londonderry. People like to mock Bush's, "You're either with us, or with the terrorists," statement, but the Islamists go much farther. They say, "You either are us, or we will kill you."
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You're blithly ignoring the fact that travel is much faster and cheaper today than ever, and that the tools of terrorism are likewise cheaper and easier to aquire.
 
BPSCG said:
To the wicked, everything is pretext.
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I wouldn't say everything is pretext. Hitler's appeals to Nietzsche, Christianity and (if there are any) Darwinian Evolution were probably largely to further his goals, certainly, but I don't think he just woke up one day and decided he wanted to kill a lot of people and wanted a pretext. He had a reason for his stance on Jews, and I think it would be simplistic to say he did it just to be a prick or to help concentrate power in his own hands.

There are things Hitler sincerely believed, and there are things Hitler claimed to believe for the sake of advancing his goals. It's hard to see where exactly the line lies because dictators are lying bastards almost by definition, but I think there must be a substantial amount of stuff on both sides of the line.
 
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ImaginalDisc said:
You're blithly ignoring the fact that travel is much faster and cheaper today than ever, and that the tools of terrorism are likewise cheaper and easier to aquire.
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Hmmm, aren't the Basques still at it? Why aren't they blowing up buses in Londonderry? Or torching nightclubs in Bali? Or flying jetliners into skyscrapers in New York?

And when did the Provisional IRA give up terrorism? July 28, 2005, a time when intercontinental travel was almost unknown and prohibitively expensive...
 
BPSCG said:
Hmmm, aren't the Basques still at it? Why aren't they blowing up buses in Londonderry? Or torching nightclubs in Bali? Or flying jetliners into skyscrapers in New York?

And when did the Provisional IRA give up terrorism? July 28, 2005, a time when intercontinental travel was almost unknown and prohibitively expensive...
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Those groups are also dealing with foes who are willing to negotiate.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
You're blithly ignoring the fact that travel is much faster and cheaper today than ever, and that the tools of terrorism are likewise cheaper and easier to aquire.
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Up to Sept 12 2001, I'd agree with you. Stood in line at an airport lately? :eek:

As to the tools being cheaper and more easily acquired, I offer you the cell phone, a terrorist's multi purpose tool. Is that a teenage drama queen texting her boyfriend, or is it a guy about to trigger a bomb in that theater?

DR
 
Darth Rotor said:
Up to Sept 12 2001, I'd agree with you. Stood in line at an airport lately? :eek:

As to the tools being cheaper and more easily acquired, I offer you the cell phone, a terrorist's multi purpose tool. Is that a teenage drama queen texting her boyfriend, or is it a guy about to trigger a bomb in that theater?

DR
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ETA: in support of a different point, not all terrorist groups use the same MO's. 17th November in Greece was very selective; ETA tends to target specific officials; IRA had favored targets. Also, each terrorist group tends to have its own standards, along the lines of "we will do this, but we won't do that since that is not honorable/what we want to take credit for/consistent with our moral stance."

DR
 
Also, the Basques and the IRA and the Tamil Tigers are dealing with inherently local issues. (Secession/annexation.) Many Muslim terrorists are also focused on local issues, and stick to local terrorism (For instance HAMAS seems to stick to the Israel/Palestine area as far as I know.) But many other Muslim terrorists are more interested in global issues, and accordingly, attack globally.

There might be something "more evil" about Muslim terrorists compared to other terrorists, but this difference seems attributable to other aspects of their organizations.

BPSCG said:
What are you supposed to negotiate with someone who denies your right to live?
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A person who wants you to die generally also wants other things. Even if your continued life is non-negotiable (which seems reasonable enough) there may be other things you can negotiate about.
 
BPSCG said:
The most striking difference between the Islamists and the other terrorists being that the other terrorists didn't make targets their terror on anyone, anywhere in the world who wasn't them. The IRA didn't blow up buses in Barcelona, and the Basque terrorists don't blow up pubs in Londonderry.
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Well, sort of, but...from the Human Rights Watch webpage, http://www.hrw.org/worldreport/Helsinki-26.htm:

On November 20, 1996, Roisin McAliskey, the twenty-five-year-old daughter of civil rights activist Bernadette McAliskey, was arrested and detained under Northern Ireland's emergency laws. McAliskey was four months pregnant, asthmatic, and suffering from an eating disorder at the time of arrest. The arrest was made allegedly on the basis of an extradition warrant issued by German authorities in connection with an IRA mortar attack on a British army base in Osnabruck, Germany, in June 1996. [Bolding mine.]

There seems to be some doubt about whether the said Roisin McAliskey was involved in the attack, but not much about whether it happened. I have also heard from people who served in Germany that IRA snipers used to hang out outside U.S. and British bases and take shots at servicepeople as they exited the installations.
 
This thread is quickly heading downhill. Stop the personal attacks, or posts will be moved to AAH.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson
 
Elizabeth I said:
IRA snipers used to hang out outside U.S. and British bases and take shots at servicepeople as they exited the installations.
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Why would IRA snipers shoot at US servicemen? American donations was the main source of IRA funding and the biggest sticking point in US-UK relations prior to 9-11.
 
marksman said:
Why would IRA snipers shoot at US servicemen? American donations was the main source of IRA funding and the biggest sticking point in US-UK relations prior to 9-11.
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Those were donations from private citizens.

As a government, the U.S. supported the U.K. - not specifically against the IRA, but as a general policy.
 
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