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no Darwin, no Hitler

hgc said:
Yeah, there wasn't really a "Jewish people" like we think of them today. They were a little kingdom, with some longed-for glorious past (King David), speaking the language of their one-time captors (Aramaic), with a fabulous hilltop city as their cultural/economic center, and particular cantankerousness toward Roman control. This caused them to be ejected and dispersed. Since they had a well documented liturgy and pseudo-mythical "history" in place (bible) and a fairly literate male population to read it, they managed to hang on to their distinct identity through many centuries of travels and travails. It's all the persecution since Jesus that really makes them who they are today. Prior, it was the standard occupying power boot stamp stuff.
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Good summary. Sparked a bit of an epiphany for me: it's not that the jews were even the most persecuted in christian europe, it's just that they were among the few non-christians who persisted despite of it.
 
Originally Posted by BPSCG
If there'd been no Hitler, there'd be no me*. Without WW II, no freakin' way my parents would have met.

*...and y'all wouldn't be receiving the daily blessing of my wisdom...:duck:
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shemp said:
I now have sufficient reason to build a time machine, go back, and kill Hitler.
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Hah. I already went back, foiled your 1932 attempt, and sent you back to 2006. Sorry about the 40 million dead, but I have to think about myself.

BTW, hope you appreciate those little stock tips I gave your 1932 self. You should be living on a staggering pile of wealth, assuming your 1932 self followed my advice. You did bet a couple of million on Clay over Liston, right?
 
BPSCG said:
Originally Posted by BPSCG [qimg]http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
Hah. I already went back, foiled your 1932 attempt, and sent you back to 2006. Sorry about the 40 million dead, but I have to think about myself.

BTW, hope you appreciate those little stock tips I gave your 1932 self. You should be living on a staggering pile of wealth, assuming your 1932 self followed my advice. You did bet a couple of million on Clay over Liston, right?
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None of that happened. You stepped on a butterfly and changed everything. Hitler gave up politics and went back to painting, we're still in the midst of a 77 year depression, and Liston beat the holy crap out of Clay and went on to become President, running on the Communist Party ticket and defeating Ron Reagan (fils, not pere) of the Ballet Dancers' Party. He declared himself President-for-Life, started WWIII (vs. France), and invented the Internet (which is a dessert topping, not a means of communication). Oh, and you were killed in a Nevada brothel accident, nibbled to death by several goats. You died happy.
 
brodski said:
Only if you accept the Exodus as fact. Other than that, they had a few wars, won a few, lost a few, and where then conquered by the Romans just like everyone else. ;)
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That's not actually true. The Romans persecuted Jews for being Jews before converting to Christianity. The rest of the Roman world were polytheists and had little trouble adding Jupiter and Minerva to their pantheon, just as the Romans had no trouble adding other gods to theirs. But the Jews were different because they wouldn't give up monotheism, and refused to engage in Roman rituals. Also the laws of kashrut prevented them from taking part in civic feasts.

Because of that, the Jews were seen as outsiders in a way that other peoples were not and the Roman Empire, even before the Christianization, had intermittent bouts of antisemitism. For example, during the Masada period, it is believed that the Romans killed more Jews -- as a proportion of the Jewish population -- than the Nazis did during World War II. And they did so without the benefits of gas chambers and machine guns.

I recommend the book Constantine's Sword, which summarizes the relevant research on this point and I apologize for any thread derailment this may have caused.
 
timhau said:
How many Hitler quotes mentioning Darwin can you find?
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None in Mein Kampf. But when I searched for "evolution", I struck gold.

[swiki]Hitler and evolution[/swiki]

Listen up, Americans, and sharpen your pencils. An ad hominem argument is ... unworthy ... as we know.

But if Coulter is going to start this ... wow.

To quote Voltaire: "In my whole life I have made only one prayer - O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And he granted it."
 
Dr Adequate said:
Some quotes from Hitler.



I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

When He [Jesus] found it necessary He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

Of course, one doesn't discuss such a question with the Jews... Their very existence is an incarnate denial of the beauty of God's image in His creation.
Anyhow, the Jew has attained the ends he desired... the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

And only for such action as is undertaken to secure those ends can it be lawful in the eyes of God and our German posterity to allow the blood of our people to be shed once again. Before God, because we are sent into this world with the commission to struggle for our daily bread. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

The most devoted Protestant could stand side by side with the most devoted Catholic in our ranks without having his conscience disturbed in the slightest as far as concerned his religious convictions. The bitter struggle which both waged in common against the wrecker of Aryan humanity taught them natural respect and esteem. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

Almighty God, bless our arms when the hour comes. Be just, as Thou hast always been just... Lord, bless our struggle. --- Hitler, Mein Kampf

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work. --- Hitler, speech, Reichstag, 1936

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in his might and seized the scourge to drive out of the temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before that it was for this that he had to shed his blood on the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice..." --- Hitler, Speech, April 12 1922

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people. --- Hitler, Speech, April 26, 1933



If you had to call it one way or the other --- no Jesus, no Luther, no anti-Semitism, no Hitler.
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Uh. Your quotes concern things Hitler has apparently said, and the things said includes references to God and/or Christianity.

What might be the relevance to the OP?
 
I think that my point was that a person who believes that God created man; that he did so in his own image; in the expulsion from Paradise, that we were commissioned by God to struggle for our daily bread; and in the fixity of species (see link above) is probably not under the influence of Darwin.

He might almost be described as a creationist, don't you think. Given that his beliefs are identical to theirs?
 
DanishDynamite said:
Uh. Your quotes concern things Hitler has apparently said, and the things said includes references to God and/or Christianity.

What might be the relevance to the OP?
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Reducio ad absurdum, DD. By demonstrating the Hitler was a Jesus freak, and that he made little to no mention to Darwin, it shows that Ann Coulter is a diseased political prostitute, and wrong.
 
Why don't we stop pussyfooting around? Ann Coulter = Hitler, okay?

Next topic.
 
Dr Adequate said:
I think that my point was that a person who believes that God created man; that he did so in his own image; in the expulsion from Paradise, that we were commissioned by God to struggle for our daily bread; and in the fixity of species (see link above) is probably not under the influence of Darwin.

He might almost be described as a creationist, don't you think. Given that his beliefs are identical to theirs?
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I'm confused. Are you saying that because Hitler was in some ways a believer, this is the reason he did what he did?

If so, I don't understand the relevance to the OP which states No Darwin, No Hitler.
 
bob_kark said:
What bothers me the most is that people can make these bizarre claims and no one says anything. However, if I were to claim that if there were no Jesus, there would have been no Hitler, I'd recieve death threats on a regular basis. I'd be booed back to the stone age. Perhaps we need to become a more vocal group?
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For what it's worth, I bet Ann Coulter gets death threats. Much as I wish people that hated her are above that.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
Reducio ad absurdum, DD. By demonstrating the Hitler was a Jesus freak, and that he made little to no mention to Darwin, it shows that Ann Coulter is a diseased political prostitute, and wrong.
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Finally! A deduction which makes sense. :)
 
DanishDynamite said:
I'm confused. Are you saying that because Hitler was in some ways a believer, this is the reason he did what he did?

If so, I don't understand the relevance to the OP which states No Darwin, No Hitler.
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The OP quoted a source which says that Hitler was influenced in his genocide by the works of Darwin, Dr A has produced evidence that Hitler held views which where directly contradictory to Darwin, therefore the chance of Darwin's ideas directly leading to Hitler genocide are slim at best.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
Reducio ad absurdum, DD. By demonstrating the Hitler was a Jesus freak, and that he made little to no mention to Darwin, it shows that Ann Coulter is a diseased political prostitute, and wrong.
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Oh, I already knew that she was.

180px-Ann_coulter_tv.jpg
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brodski said:
Beliefs regarding the origin of man and the plausibility of evolution via natural selection as an explanation for the diversity of life.
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Oh. I thought he was suggesting creationists are into killing Jews and all that stuff...
 
brodski said:
The OP quoted a source which says that Hitler was influenced in his genocide by the works of Darwin, Dr A has produced evidence that Hitler held views which where directly contradictory to Darwin, therefore the chance of Darwin's ideas directly leading to Hitler genocide are slim at best.
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Thanks, brodski! I understand now.

(Yes, I didn't read the whole thread before posting. :))
 
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