Nick Berg photos

[Grammatron]

How about this.

Son was naive and believed Dubya. He went to what is currently a very dangerous part of the war.

US, from which we hope to expecte more of than Osama, treated him with contempt. Compare his treatment with that of the truckdriver who was also kidnapped. That guy was feted and in the news. But he was not working for himself, but for an official contractor.

His parents came up against a scary new face of the US. The US is not like Saddam, is it. It doesn't hold people in secret without letting concerned parents know what is happening. Well, yes, it does. It doesn't execute them yet, in secret. Well, it does if they are Iraqi.

The US is currently experiencing a major schism. Between those who believe that what is good about the US requires that they act in an ethical manner, and those who don't, who appear to believe that what is good about the US requires them to do whatever it takes, without realising that when they do this, they destroy what they thought the US stood for.

I think you can guarentee the whistle blowers in the US army won't be thanked. Many will be blaming them for all that goes wrong from now on.

And any of that has what to do with terrorist beheading Berg?

 

[fishbob]

And any of that has what to do with terrorist beheading Berg?

Unintended consequences of bureaucratic bumbling. Berg was detained by our guys when he planned to leave Iraq, then when he was no longer detained by our guys, the bad guys got him.

Simple, and unpleasant to contemplate.

 

[Grammatron]

Unintended consequences of bureaucratic bumbling. Berg was detained by our guys when he planned to leave Iraq, then when he was no longer detained by our guys, the bad guys got him.

Simple, and unpleasant to contemplate.

It's not a consequence at all. FBI picked him up, questioned him about being in Iraq, realized they were wrong and released him. Terrorist saw him somewhere, kidnapped him and beheaded him. I do not see how the two connected at all.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Grammatron
It's not a consequence at all. FBI picked him up, questioned him about being in Iraq, realized they were wrong and released him. Terrorist saw him somewhere, kidnapped him and beheaded him. I do not see how the two connected at all.

Only in the sense that every event in your life is connected to every other event. One could just as easily argue that if he had been held longer, he would not have been kidnapped and killed.

 

[a_unique_person]

Only in the sense that every event in your life is connected to every other event. One could just as easily argue that if he had been held longer, he would not have been kidnapped and killed.

Every day extra in Iraq, the more dangerous the place becomes. When Berg realised he had to get out for his own safety, he tried to. When he was released back onto the streets, his life was in danger every minute. Normally, a consulate or embassy will help ensure the safety of citizens in such a situation.

I don't defend his captors at all, but you try to look after your own, don't you?

 

[UnTrickaBLe]

That video made me very sick, angry, and sad. It shows the very worst of humankind. Religious murderers. Criminals. Anyone who expresses the slightest sympathy for these delusional religious butchers is a worthless human being, in my opinion--or worse.

I need to see something good or cheerful about humanity to wipe this from my mind.

 

[Reginald]

Abusing Iraqi "detainees" is wrong, the pictures are horrible, they shock the public (the truth often does). Domestic support may dwindle as a result of this.

Fanatics cutting of a non-combatant's head is wrong, the pictures are horrible, they shock the public. Domestic cries for revenge may increase.

It's almost pointless talking about degrees of right and wrong here, whats more important (IMO) is the public's repulsion at the various stories and pictures now rattling around.

In my own case I felt shame at seeing those prisoners abused, shame is a personal thing, a quiet, individual thing. But I felt anger at seeing that guy beheaded, genuine rage at the cold way he was killed. Despite the US admin saying they will bring those men to justice, I don't think they will be able to.

In the final analysis, when I weigh it up in my mind, we have abused prisoners, but the people who did will be punished by the society they let down, the victims (however inadequately) may be compensated. The people who cut of that man's head won't suffer the shame of any nation, they may even be cheered by some. There will be no compensation.

People who spontaneously find fault and criticize our culture and our various governments would do well remember that despite many faults, we can still be shocked by our own actions. I don't think the same applies to those who carried out this beheading, or those that support them. To me that's a difference, that is the important difference.

 

[Roadtoad]

I refuse to watch the video, and turn this man into an object of morbid amusement. Ditto the photos. (No, Mycroft, I know you weren't doing that, but some have done so.)

I want to know more about what Bush could and should have done. If George W. and his staff allowed this to happen when it could have been prevented, he might as well start packing. Come January, he'll be leaving.

 

[UnTrickaBLe]

edit

 

[WildCat]

Unintended consequences of bureaucratic bumbling. Berg was detained by our guys when he planned to leave Iraq, then when he was no longer detained by our guys, the bad guys got him.

Simple, and unpleasant to contemplate.

Unintended consequence of mindless sports entertainment, . Man goes to Cubs game, goes to bar afterwards because the Chicago beaureacrats gave them a liquor license. Gets in argument w/ driver and is shot dead.

Simple, and unpleasant to contemplate.

Nick Berg apparently was working for himself, somewhat of a freelancer. He apparently did not have any armed guards or miitary protection hired or given to other contractors in Iraq. Naive and foolish yes, but hardly the fault of the Bush admin. He was told to get out of the country, he was alive in Iraq for at 3 days before he was captured. More info to be released today.

The prison pics were just the latest excuse, the animals who kidnapped him would have killed him regardless, as was the Italian hostage murdered before the pics were shown.

Nick Berg didn't deserve to die, but he made some foolish choices. It's a horrific story.

 

[BillyTK]

He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure

Mycroft, respectfully, idealising someone is equally a form of dehumanisation as referring to Nick Berg as the "Beheading Victim". He was a human being, with all the good points and frailties that go with that; let's try and remember that and avoid making him into a martyr for any partisan cause.

 

[Tmy]

Was he captured BEFORE the prison scandle came out?? Or AFTER?

Im guessing they woudlve killed him either way. Civillian kidnapping has become quite popular with thes Iraqi terror guys. Not just americans either. I remember they killed an Italian guy not to long ago.

 

[Skeptic]

And any of that has what to do with terrorist beheading Berg?

Well, nothing, but since when has AUP posted about anything else except for how awful the US / jews are?

 

[Skeptic]

Every day extra in Iraq, the more dangerous the place becomes.

The sad think is that AUP appear to actually think in these sort of tired cliches.

I don't defend his captors at all,

...except for laying the "real" blame for his capture and beheading not on them, but on the USA. and not saying a single word in condemnation of the assassin's actions.

 

[rikzilla]

And any of that has what to do with terrorist beheading Berg?

It has as much to do with the beheading of Berg, as it does the beheading of Danny Pearl.

BTW, isn't "Berg" a Jewish name? Isn't that also a possibility?

-z

 

[LTC8K6]

Berg never held by U.S.?

Berg Never In U.S. Custody

 

[Kodiak]

"I knew he was decapitated before," said the father, Michael Berg. "That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public."

Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive had he not been detained by U.S. officials in Iraq without being charged and without access to a lawyer.

Nick Berg, a small telecommunications business owner, spoke to his parents on March 24 and told them he would return home on March 30. But Berg was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24. He was turned over to U.S. officials and detained for 13 days.

His father, Michael, said his son wasn't allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer.

FBI agents visited Berg's parents in West Chester on March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity. On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated.

Michael Berg said he blamed the U.S. government for creating circumstances that led to his son's death. He said if his son hadn't been detained for so long, he might have been able to leave the country before the violence worsened.

"I think a lot of people are fed up with the lack of civil rights this thing has caused," he said. "I don't think this administration is committed to democracy."

Congrats, subgenius, an new all-time low...

You just couldn't pass up the opportunity to take political advantage of Berg's execution...

You keep making my case for me...

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Nick Berg photos

Originally posted by BillyTK
Mycroft, respectfully, idealising someone is equally a form of dehumanisation as referring to Nick Berg as the "Beheading Victim". He was a human being, with all the good points and frailties that go with that; let's try and remember that and avoid making him into a martyr for any partisan cause.

Pointing out that he thought he could do some good over there is hardly idealising him. In the end, Nick Berg was a civilian who was murdered for being an American.

 

[LFTKBS]

Horrible. I hate Islam. I hate Christianity. I hate George W. Bush, I hate al-Zarqawi, I hate bin Laden, I hate the people who did this and the people who allowed it to happen. I hate the people who lied about Iraq's stability and I hate the CPA. I hate what happening there and I hate what's happening here.

There is no god, and we are brutish, disgusting animals whose lust for death and destruction knows no bounds.

We kill them, they kill us, and it will never end so long as we exist.

Perhaps it would be better had we never existed at all. Would it be so horrible if we were all dead, and got it over with already?

 

[curious]

Re: Berg never held by U.S.?

Berg Never In U.S. Custody

According to that story he was just held by the Iraqi police, for two weeks, with no real explanation of why so far. AP tried to contact the Iraqi police that were supposed to be holding him and couldn't get any info.

There's also this story:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - An American civilian who was beheaded in a grisly video posted on an al-Qaida-linked Web site had been warned to leave Iraq but refused, U.S. officials said Wednesday.

There isn't really any more information then that opening sentence in the article. An unnamed US official says Berg was told to leave but refused. No dates/timelines or reasons are given.