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New PSI forum

Lucianarchy

Banned
Joined
Oct 28, 2001
Messages
2,105
Now we are going to have the PSI forum, we should prepare / compile a list of all the evidence / replictions including references and sources.

Given the evidence is now quite positive, and there now beign no mundane, rationale known scientific explanation for the effect.The starting point of the forum should be: The Psi effect exists. Now is the time to move onto applying scepticism to any forthcoming explanations. Not as denial, but as tests of exploration.
 
Given the evidence is now quite positive, and there now beign no mundane, rationale known scientific explanation for the effect.The starting point of the forum should be: The Psi effect exists.

You know... I heard that some guy was offering a million bucks for just such evidence.
 
I didn't hear anything, but I read "evidence" in a context that implied there was evidence.
 
Lucianarchy said:
Now we are going to have the PSI forum, we should prepare / compile a list of all the evidence / replictions including references and sources.

Given the evidence is now quite positive, and there now beign no mundane, rationale known scientific explanation for the effect.The starting point of the forum should be: The Psi effect exists. Now is the time to move onto applying scepticism to any forthcoming explanations. Not as denial, but as tests of exploration.

Proclaiming yourself the winner while sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALA? charming.
 
Lucianarchy said:
Now we are going to have the PSI forum, we should prepare / compile a list of all the evidence / replictions including references and sources.

Given the evidence is now quite positive, and there now beign no mundane, rationale known scientific explanation for the effect.The starting point of the forum should be: The Psi effect exists. Now is the time to move onto applying scepticism to any forthcoming explanations. Not as denial, but as tests of exploration.

Such a list of replicated experiments with good controls that show statistical significance when tseting for 'psi' probably wouldn't be a bad idea.
 
Re: Re: New PSI forum

Lucianarchy said:
Now we are going to have the PSI forum, we should prepare / compile a list of all the evidence / replictions including references and sources.

What are you talking about? What "PSI forum"?

Lucianarchy said:
Given the evidence is now quite positive, and there now beign no mundane, rationale known scientific explanation for the effect.The starting point of the forum should be: The Psi effect exists.

Gee, I'd really, really like to see the evidence of that...

Lucianarchy said:
Now is the time to move onto applying scepticism to any forthcoming explanations. Not as denial, but as tests of exploration.

If anyone is in denial, it's you.

T'ai Chi said:
Such a list of replicated experiments with good controls that show statistical significance when tseting for 'psi' probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

If one exists, I would really, really like to see it...
 
Re: Re: Re: New PSI forum

CFLarsen said:

If one exists, I would really, really like to see it...

So... do some homework...

And/or look at the RNG, ganzfeld, and auto-ganzfeld cumulative databases.

Do you believe that "replicated experiments with good controls that show statistical significance when testing for 'psi'" do not exist?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: New PSI forum

T'ai Chi said:
So... do some homework...

I have. I can't find it. Can you help by listing it?

T'ai Chi said:
And/or look at the RNG, ganzfeld, and auto-ganzfeld cumulative databases.

Have you? Have you actually looked at the actual databases, or have you just read Radin's book?

T'ai Chi said:
Do you believe that "replicated experiments with good controls that show statistical significance when testing for 'psi'" do not exist?

It's not a question of belief. We know that there is no experiment with good controls that show statistical significance that can be replicated.

As for testing for "psi"? Please explain the hypothesis for Extrasensory perception (ESP) and psychokinesis (which is what "psi" stands for).
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New PSI forum

CFLarsen said:

Have you? Have you actually looked at the actual databases, or have you just read Radin's book?


Have you? Have you actually looked at the actual databases, or have you just read Radin's book?


We know that there is no experiment with good controls that show statistical significance that can be replicated.


Auto-ganzfeld, RNG experiments...


As for testing for "psi"? Please explain the hypothesis for Extrasensory perception (ESP) and psychokinesis (which is what "psi" stands for).

You'll have to be more specific. What exactly are you wanting me to do?
 
T'ai Chi said:
Have you? Have you actually looked at the actual databases, or have you just read Radin's book?

No, I have not looked at the actual databases. Have you?

Yes, I have read Radin's book. Have you?

T'ai Chi said:
Auto-ganzfeld, RNG experiments...

Those are descriptions of how to do experiments. Please list the exact experiments: What was tested, who tested it, how was it replicated?

T'ai Chi said:
You'll have to be more specific. What exactly are you wanting me to do?

Exactly what I said:

Please explain the hypothesis for Extrasensory perception (ESP) and psychokinesis (which is what "psi" stands for).
 
Uma Thurmon is currently my love slave. . .

. . . I may consider allowing Nicole Kidman to join my herem. . . .

. . . my power is proven and clear.

Soon I shall have a special forum dedicated to my powers to allow those intelligent enough to appreciate the evidences to join in the study and deification of me.

While I accept donations to further these studies which have already proven Einstein and Archimedes wrong, I would not consider debasing myself to apply for a "Million Dollar Prize" for which no evidences exist that it exists.

--J. "Ego Eimi!" D.
 
Re: Re: Re: New PSI forum

CFLarsen said:


What are you talking about? What "PSI forum"?
Gee, I'd really, really like to see the evidence of that...
If one exists, I would really, really like to see it...

It's going to part of the new look here. See the announcemnt.

General Skepticism
Belief and Skepticism in the Media
Afterlife, Spirits, and Mediums
Aliens, UFOs, and Close Encounters
Alternative Medicine and Science
Parapsychology and Psi Claims
 
Most honest, informed sceptics these days accept that there is an effect.

In the face of the overallbody of evidence, it would be irrational, illogical and against occam to suggest each and every last peice of scientific evidence is a result of either self delusion, cheating or collusion of some sort. In fact it is extraordinary unlikely that that should account for every psi effect on record.

The liklihood is that the effect exists and current scientific thinking does not yet understand the mechanism of action.

People who study the phenomena agree that the effect shall be known as the 'Psi Effect'. You have to accept and remember that no known method of action has been found to account for the Ganzfeld. And if you are to assume that each and every last known recorded purported 'effect' is responsible to either delusion, fraud or error, in light of so many undeunked accounts, that is an extraordinary claim in itself, and as such requires extraordinary evidence.

The fact is, the method of action has not been identified, yet it fits so close to both common human experience and now the QM theories of non-local behaviour, that it is more likely that the effect is indeed non-local and therefore worthy of increased research and funding.

Here's the first part of the compilation of resources. Please feel free to add to it so we can begin the new forum with a good firm grounding.
"[...]When 10 new studies published after the Milton Wiseman cut off date are added to their database, the overall ganzfeld effect again becomes significant, but the mean effect size is still smaller than those from the original studies. Ratings of all 40 studies by 3 independent raters reveal that the effect size achieved by a replication is significantly correlated with the degree to which it adhered to the standard ganzfeld protocol. Standard replications yield significant effect sizes comparable with those obtained in the past. " Bem, D.J, Palmer, J. and Broughton, R.S. (2001). Updating the Ganzfeld database: a victim of its own success? Journal of Parapsychology, 65, 207-218

The above was also covered in Science News:

"Since the metanalysis was completed, nine more ganzfeld studies have been published. Milton acknowledges that the psi effect would be statistically significant if the analysis were updated to include these studies." - http://www.sciencenews.org
Bem's response to Hyman - http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/dbem...e_to_hyman.html

"The Ganzfeld experiments at Edinburgh are getting highly
significant results. They appear to be well designed and
if they are carried out as stated, then the results are
very unlikely to be due to chance and therefore may be
evidence of ESP. " - Dr S Blackmore (member of CSICOP)

Bem, D. J. and Honorton, C. (1994). Does psi exist? Replicable evidence for an anomalous process of information transfer, Psychological Bulletin, 115, 4-18. Here's the article online: psi in the ganzfeld. http://www.psych.cornell.edu/dbem/does_psi_exist.html

Child, I. L. (1985). Psychology and anomalous observations: The question of ESP in dreams. American Psychologist, 40, 1219-1230.

Jahn, R. G. and Dunne, B. J. (1986). On the quantum mechanics of consciousness, with application to anomalous phenomena. Foundations of Physics, 16, 721-772.

Jahn, R. G. (1982). The persistent paradox of psychic phenomena: An engineering perspective. Proceedings of the IEEE, 70, 136-170.

Radin, D. I. (1989). Searching for "signatures" in anomalous human-machine interaction research: A neural network approach. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 3, 185-200.

Radin, D. I. & Nelson, R. D. (1989). Evidence for consciousness-related anomalies in random physical systems. Foundations of Physics, 19, 1499-1514.

Radin, D. I. (1994). On complexity and pragmatism. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 8 (4), 523-534.

Rao, K. R. & Palmer, J. (1987). The anomaly called psi: Recent research and criticism. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 10, 539-551.

Utts, J. (1991). Replication and meta-analysis in parapsychology. Statistical Science, 6, 363-378.

Jessica Utts' Report on Remote Viewing for the US government, critic Ray Hyman's Response to Utts' Report, and her Response to Hyman's Response. http://www.stat.ucdavis.edu/users/utts/response.html
 
Lucianarchy said:
In the face of the overallbody of evidence, it would be irrational, illogical and against occam to suggest each and every last peice of scientific evidence is a result of either self delusion, cheating or collusion of some sort. In fact it is extraordinary unlikely that that should account for every psi effect on record.

Is it? I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone cut a woman in half. So it MUST be true, mustn't it?
 
Lucianarchy said:
Parapsychology and Psi Claims

Claims are not evidence, you fool.

Lucianarchy said:
Most honest, informed sceptics these days accept that there is an effect.

Fool.

Lucianarchy said:
In the face of the overallbody of evidence, it would be irrational, illogical and against occam to suggest each and every last peice of scientific evidence is a result of either self delusion, cheating or collusion of some sort. In fact it is extraordinary unlikely that that should account for every psi effect on record.

It is up to you to show just one piece of evidence. Simply saying "They can't all be fakes" is not good enough. Using that logic, you believe that Santa is real.

Lucianarchy said:
The liklihood is that the effect exists and current scientific thinking does not yet understand the mechanism of action.

Yeah, yeah: Scientists are not open-minded enough, scientists are not clever enough, blah, blah, blah...

Lucianarchy said:
People who study the phenomena agree that the effect shall be known as the 'Psi Effect'.

They do? Prove it.

Lucianarchy said:
You have to accept and remember that no known method of action has been found to account for the Ganzfeld.

Argument from ignorance. Using that logic, electricity should have been declared paranormal 300 years ago.

Lucianarchy said:
And if you are to assume that each and every last known recorded purported 'effect' is responsible to either delusion, fraud or error, in light of so many undeunked accounts, that is an extraordinary claim in itself, and as such requires extraordinary evidence.

No, it is not very extraordinary to state that humans have a long history of deceit and self-delusion.

Lucianarchy said:
The fact is, the method of action has not been identified, yet it fits so close to both common human experience and now the QM theories of non-local behaviour, that it is more likely that the effect is indeed non-local and therefore worthy of increased research and funding.

Oh, please tell us how the QM theories explain psi!

Lucianarchy said:
Here's the first part of the compilation of resources. Please feel free to add to it so we can begin the new forum with a good firm grounding.

Same old tired crap, debunked a zillion times.
 
Status of current Ganzfeld research :

- parapsychologists first claimed they got positive results with the Ganzfeld
- skeptics highlighted numerous protocol biases in their protocols

[=> 1st controversy]

- parapsychologists moved to "auto-ganzfeld" and claimed they got positive results
- skeptics validated the protocol byt they couldn't reproduce any of the successful tests

[=> 2nd controversy]

- parapsychologists made several meta-analysis and got positive results
- skeptics made several meta-analysis and got negative results

[=> 3rd controversy is about what experiment should be included in the "Ganzfeld database" or not (see papers about "updating the ganzfeld database")]

Is this controversy fixed yet ? As far as I know, no.

If you are interested in ESP research etc, don't try to get back to the 1st and 2nd controversy time. Read those papers you mention, and find a way to get out of the 3rd controversy era.

Clue: you never get out of a controversy by answering to the original question. Invent and get the never-ending debate toward its 4th step !


---
Nicolas Vivant
 
CFLarsen said:

No, I have not looked at the actual databases. Have you?


Some of the dataset, yes. All of them, no. Do I have a list or have kept the ones I've looked at a while back, no.


Yes, I have read Radin's book. Have you?


Yes. Twice.


Those are descriptions of how to do experiments. Please list the exact experiments: What was tested, who tested it, how was it replicated?


There have been plenty done. You'll have to contact the authors of those experiments for the details you are looking for.


Please explain the hypothesis for Extrasensory perception (ESP) and psychokinesis (which is what "psi" stands for).

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "the hypothesis". If you could give me an example with something a non-psi subject, that would be great.
 
Lucianarchy said:
Most honest, informed sceptics these days accept that there is an effect.

In the face of the overallbody of evidence, it would be irrational, illogical and against occam to suggest each and every last peice of scientific evidence is a result of either self delusion, cheating or collusion of some sort. In fact it is extraordinary unlikely that that should account for every psi effect on record.

The liklihood is that the effect exists and current scientific thinking does not yet understand the mechanism of action.

People who study the phenomena agree that the effect shall be known as the 'Psi Effect'. You have to accept and remember that no known method of action has been found to account for the Ganzfeld. And if you are to assume that each and every last known recorded purported 'effect' is responsible to either delusion, fraud or error, in light of so many undeunked accounts, that is an extraordinary claim in itself, and as such requires extraordinary evidence.

The fact is, the method of action has not been identified, yet it fits so close to both common human experience and now the QM theories of non-local behaviour, that it is more likely that the effect is indeed non-local and therefore worthy of increased research and funding.

Here's the first part of the compilation of resources. Please feel free to add to it so we can begin the new forum with a good firm grounding.

The above was also covered in Science News:


Bem's response to Hyman - http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/dbem...e_to_hyman.html



Bem, D. J. and Honorton, C. (1994). Does psi exist? Replicable evidence for an anomalous process of information transfer, Psychological Bulletin, 115, 4-18. Here's the article online: psi in the ganzfeld. http://www.psych.cornell.edu/dbem/does_psi_exist.html

Child, I. L. (1985). Psychology and anomalous observations: The question of ESP in dreams. American Psychologist, 40, 1219-1230.

Jahn, R. G. and Dunne, B. J. (1986). On the quantum mechanics of consciousness, with application to anomalous phenomena. Foundations of Physics, 16, 721-772.

Jahn, R. G. (1982). The persistent paradox of psychic phenomena: An engineering perspective. Proceedings of the IEEE, 70, 136-170.

Radin, D. I. (1989). Searching for "signatures" in anomalous human-machine interaction research: A neural network approach. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 3, 185-200.

Radin, D. I. & Nelson, R. D. (1989). Evidence for consciousness-related anomalies in random physical systems. Foundations of Physics, 19, 1499-1514.

Radin, D. I. (1994). On complexity and pragmatism. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 8 (4), 523-534.

Rao, K. R. & Palmer, J. (1987). The anomaly called psi: Recent research and criticism. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 10, 539-551.

Utts, J. (1991). Replication and meta-analysis in parapsychology. Statistical Science, 6, 363-378.

Jessica Utts' Report on Remote Viewing for the US government, critic Ray Hyman's Response to Utts' Report, and her Response to Hyman's Response. http://www.stat.ucdavis.edu/users/utts/response.html

And I would personally start with Utts, J. (1991). Replication and meta-analysis in parapsychology. Statistical Science, 6, 363-378. The article and its rejoinders are excellent. I was delighted to find this issue in my office that the previous grad student left!
(he left a big stack of Statistical Science issues, not just this issue ;) ).
 

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