Netanyahu resigns over Gaza

[zenith-nadir]

Your view, I believe, is that colonization of Israel by European Jews on land that was occupied by somebody else was OK, but the resistance of the people that were there to that colonization was evil.

This is what I believe. I believe that using terms such as "European Jews" and "colonization" and "resistance" is turnspeak, xenophobic and feeds into the myths which need to be debunked. And what better place to do that than on a skeptics message board.

Jews and Arabs got along pretty great until Mohammad Amin al-Husayni came onto the scene. I have linked it and documented it so many times at JREF that it is amazing that you still deny that hostilities began due to al-Husayni's islamic fundamentalism and his conspiracy with Hitler to wipe out the jews in Palestine. The...cough... "resistance to European jewish colonization"...cough... myth is just that, a myth. "They" - the Palestinians - weren't resisting jews... gangs of islamists led by al-Husayni were attacking jews which was the reason the Haganah was formed. In summary, al-Husayni's "resistance", which you characterize as "Palestinian resistance" had nothing to do with European jewish colonization and frankly was no different than al-Zarqawi's "Iraqi resistance" today.

You believe that closing land to purchase by the indigenous population was OK, and that the resistance by the indigenous population to this kind of policy was evil.

I believe al-Husayni's "resistance", which you characterize as "Palestinian resistance" was no different than al-Zarqawi's "Iraqi resistance" today.

You believe that working to create a Jewish only state by forcing the Indigenous Jewish population to fire its Palestinain workers was OK and that resistance to this policy by the Palestinians was evil.

Fire it's Palestinian workers? 20% of Israel today is Arab/Palestinian are you saying none of them are employed inside Israel? Hell, USAID offered to buy the settlers Gaza hothouses and give them to the Palestinians to save the jobs of some 4,000 Palestinians! So the "fire its Palestinain workers was OK" myth is debunked.

You believe that the continual expanision of Israel since 1967 might not have been OK but that it doesn't contribute to the continuing violence against Israel by some Palestinians.

I believe the "continuing violence against Israel" started in 1948 - which is prior to Israel controlling Gaza or the West Bank. I believe the international and systematic murder, maiming and menacing of the innocent by the PLO, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Abu Nidal Organization from 1965 until today has nothing to do with settlements since it began before there were any settlements.

You believe that billions of dollars dumped into Israel that subsidizes the continued expansion of Israel by the US somehow reduces the risk of terroism in the US.

I believe that the billions of dollars dumped into Israel has saved it from the systematic murder, maiming and menacing of the innocent by the PLO, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Abu Nidal Organization and from Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, formerly Egypt, Jordan and a host of other hostiles.

Originally posted by geni
$? Not US $. total value in that currency was around 3 million on the open market. I can't at short notice think of any dollar worth around 0.03 us$

The capture of the Karine A prevented uncountable loss of life in Israel. I was in error when I said $100,000,000. It seems it was $400,000 for the ship, $3,000,000 for the cargo to conceal the weapons and $15,000,000 for the weapons. But hey, the Palestinians didn't need that international aid money anyways... (link)

 

[Skeptic]

I believe the "continuing violence against Israel" started in 1948

...and only because israel didn't previously exist. As for violence against jews in the area, one needs to go back at least to 1919, if not earlier. One must remember that the founder of Palestinian nationalism, the Mufti Haj Amin al-Huseini, was a close ally of Hitler and in 1944 even begged Himmler not to save any jews before Germany's collapse, at a time when Himmler himself was thinking of saving them as bargaining chips.

Being more antisemitic than Himmler is a tough task, but, then again, it's Palestinian nationalism we're talking about...

 

[geni]

I believe that the billions of dollars dumped into Israel has saved it from the systematic murder, maiming and menacing of the innocent by the PLO, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Abu Nidal Organization and from Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, formerly Egypt, Jordan and a host of other hostiles.

Israel has had nulcear weapons for some time. Probably as far back as the 60s and definetetly by the early 80s. Currently estimates put it's stockpile size somewhere between that of the UK and of France. That means you can rule out countries as threats from nations states since there are no other nuclear powers in the area. other than that your list contains nothing more than a load of secend rate terroist group which Israel is quite cpaerble of dealing with (particlurly if it doesn't do stupid things such as putting civilians in hostile terroty). Short of termianly stupid acts (such as say occupying part of lebanon) Isreal has been quite caperble of doing whatever it want in that area of the world for years. It doesn't need any help in that respect.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Israel has had nulcear weapons for some time. Probably as far back as the 60s and definetetly by the early 80s.

So do many many other countries. no big deal.

That means you can rule out countries as threats from nations states since there are no other nuclear powers in the area.

So you are saying Iran sponsoring Hizbollah in Lebanon is not a threat and Syria sponsoring Hamas and Islamic Jihad is not a threat...how about when Jordan and Egypt sponsored the PLO? Was that no threat as well?

other than that your list contains nothing more than a load of secend rate terroist group

The PLO was the Al Queda of the 60s, 70s and 80s...it is responsible for many DOCUMENTED international terror attacks...Islamic Jihad murdered hundreds of Americans and Frenchmen in Lebanon and hundreds of Israelis since...the Abu Nidal organization carried out terrorist attacks in 20 countries... I need not go on to expose that many of these groups ARE NOT quote "secend rate terroist group" unquote.

which Israel is quite cpaerble of dealing with (particlurly if it doesn't do stupid things such as putting civilians in hostile terroty).

That's just plain silly.

Short of termianly stupid acts (such as say occupying part of lebanon)

Israel "occupied" lebanon BECAUSE the PLO was attacking Israel from there. It is so well documented that I need not do it for the 500th time.

Isreal has been quite caperble of doing whatever it want in that area of the world for years. It doesn't need any help in that respect.

In your opinion.

 

[geni]

So do many many other countries. no big deal.

Juding by the amount of fuss over Iran it would appear that haveing nuclear weapons is a big deal.

So you are saying Iran sponsoring Hizbollah in Lebanon is not a threat and Syria sponsoring Hamas and Islamic Jihad is not a threat...how about when Jordan and Egypt sponsored the PLO? Was that no threat as well?

Hezbollah tened to stick to Lebanon. None others the other were ever a threat to Israel

The PLO was the Al Queda of the 60s, 70s and 80s...it is responsible for many DOCUMENTED international terror attacks...Islamic Jihad murdered hundreds of Americans and Frenchmen in Lebanon and hundreds of Israelis since...the Abu Nidal organization carried out terrorist attacks in 20 countries... I need not go on to expose that many of these groups ARE NOT quote "secend rate terroist group" unquote.

The publem with decibeing the palistian stuff as anything other than second rate is that you run out of descriptions for the viet cong, the tamil tigers, FARC and the like

That's just plain silly.

Really? are you seriously suggesting that if the IFD had had to rely on internal funding for the last couple of decades they wouldn't have been able to defend israel proper

Israel "occupied" lebanon BECAUSE the PLO was attacking Israel from there. It is so well documented that I need not do it for the 500th time.

But the PLO left (they were not completely dumb) Israel didn't.

In your opinion.

Name one army in the region (excluding the US army) that could come anywhere close to the IDF. Remeber the IDF has nukes no one else does.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Juding by the amount of fuss over Iran it would appear that haveing nuclear weapons is a big deal.

That's because the people that will have their hand on the Iranian nuclear button get their instructions from hard-core fundamentalist clerics.

Hezbollah tened to stick to Lebanon. None others the other were ever a threat to Israel.

I can't believe you are sticking up for terror organizations.

The publem with decibeing the palistian stuff as anything other than second rate is that you run out of descriptions for the viet cong, the tamil tigers, FARC and the like

Sorry I do not understand.

Really? are you seriously suggesting that if the IFD had had to rely on internal funding for the last couple of decades they wouldn't have been able to defend israel proper

Yes.

But the PLO left (they were not completely dumb) Israel didn't.

The PLO was forced out of Lebanon and established it's headquarters in Tunis.

Name one army in the region (excluding the US army) that could come anywhere close to the IDF. Remeber the IDF has nukes no one else does.

None of them can compare to the IDF. Why? International and American aid + good old Israeli know-how.

 

[Cleopatra]

So do many many other countries. no big deal.

Excuse me. Israel has a bigger nuclear arsenal than Great Britain!!

The PLO was the Al Queda of the 60s, 70s and 80s...it is responsible for many DOCUMENTED international terror attacks...

This is a very wrong way to present PLO. The PLO of the 60ies,70ies even 80ies was the only Arab secular liberation front that had nothing to do with the AQ's fanatics.

Thanks to Ariel Sharon and his genious policy in the area and thanks to his great partner in absurdity,the late Yasser Arafat , the only arabic non-islamic group of the whole universe embraced Islamism and now we cannot get out of the mess.

 

[zenith-nadir]

This is a very wrong way to present PLO. The PLO of the 60ies,70ies even 80ies was the only Arab secular liberation front that had nothing to do with the AQ's fanatics.

The PLO carried out numerous international terrorist attacks just like Al Queda. These attacks included bombings, hijackings, assassinations, murdering school children, civil wars, ambushes and blowing up aircraft in flight. Unlike al queda god didn't tell the PLO to do those things, Arafat did. So in a way I agree with your hair splitting.

 

[Grammatron]

Juding by the amount of fuss over Iran it would appear that haveing nuclear weapons is a big deal.

Well's there's also a little matter of the non proliferation treaty Iran signed.

 

[Cleopatra]

The PLO carried out numerous international terrorist attacks just like Al Queda. These attacks included bombings, hijackings, assassinations, murdering school children, civil wars, ambushes and blowing up aircraft in flight. Unlike al queda god didn't tell the PLO to do those things, Arafat did. So in a way I agree with your hair splitting.

It's not only PLO and AQ that have been involved in international terrorist attacks.

When you compare a terrorist organization with AQ you don't focus on its range of activity but on its nature.

What fueled AQ and what PLO? Different things and as long as there is a political stance that refuses to aknowledge the obvious there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[zenith-nadir]

It's not only PLO and AQ that have been involved in international terrorist attacks. When you compare a terrorist organization with AQ you don't focus on its range of activity but on its nature.

Perhaps someone could correct me but I believe the PLO and it's various fedayeen militia groups have the most international terror attacks on record. A close second would be Al Queda.

What fueled AQ

Islamic fundamentalism.

and what PLO?

Israel's destruction.

 

[geni]

That's because the people that will have their hand on the Iranian nuclear button get their instructions from hard-core fundamentalist clerics.

But for argument to be logical nukes have to be non signifcant. Of in realitly they are as is Israel haveing them.

I can't believe you are sticking up for terror organizations.

Every organisation what ever it has done or not done deserves to be repsented truthfuly whoever they are be they FARC, the PLO, the IDF the british army or whoever. If you feel that this is sticking up for terroist organistations then.

Whether you like it or not Hezbollah (with the exception of Shebaa Farms arn't Israel proper but probably are not part of lebaon at the present time) have resticted the vast majority of their activities to Lebanon

Sorry I do not understand.

FARC controls a bit under half of Colombia. The Tamil Tigers control signifcant areas of the Tamil homeland (they also have a claim on being one of the first users of suicide bombers). The Communist Party of Nepal controls a number of areas and has left nepal in a mess. I hope I don't need to point out what the chechen lot managed.

Theese are first rate terroist organisations. The palistinian lot would level to be at their level but they are not.

Yes.

Really?

Who couldn't they defend it from? Arab states? Come on we boith know that none of them are going to risk have thier capitals turned into mushroom clouds. The PLO and allied groups? With a shortened boarder there would be far fewer targets to defend anyway most western weapons are not really designed for urban warfare (there is a reason why Isreal has it's own APC program).

The PLO was forced out of Lebanon and established it's headquarters in Tunis.

But haveing done that Isreal didn't leave. That was a mistake.

None of them can compare to the IDF. Why? International and American aid + good old Israeli know-how.

For the last couple of decade american aid could has been better spent. Sure before that cold war imperitives didn't leave the US much choice but they don't exist any more.

 

[webfusion]

chiming-in with my 2¢

With a shortened boarder there would be far fewer targets to defend anyway most western weapons are not really designed for urban warfare (there is a reason why Isreal has it's own APC program).

Israel modified their Merkava tank as an APC because of the desire for heavier armor than the M-113 APC. The lumbering tank/apc is not a future-thinking strategic program. It has limited use in the climate now taking shape between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
In fact, currently the IDF is negotiating to acquire German DINGO light-armored vehicles. The IDF has basically learned that the best way to fight in urban areas is with the D-9 and D-11 combat CAT bulldozers and just demolish everything in sight and level entire neighborhoods to the ground, eliminating all cover for the Palestinian militants/offenders. That is the threat hovering over the Palestinians if they refuse to demilitarize at this late juncture. The IDF is not about to pussy-foot around if things go to ◊◊◊◊ from this point forward.
The task of the Israeli military for the next few years will be in patrolling and border-policing along the length of the Security Barriers around Gaza, up North at Lebanon/Golan and on the new Eastern Fence.
The DINGO is perfect for this, and can even be retrofitted as a driverless-remote-vehicle.

 

[webfusion]

re: Bibi

IMO, Bibi will find himself without much support when the next Knesset elections finally roll around in 2006.

The standard-bearer on the Right will undoubtedly be Effi Eitam. Why settle for Bibi when you can get the "real deal" in Effi ?!!

Bibi needs a new job --- How about as a play-by-play commentator during the next weeks as the Gaza evacuation takes place on the TV screens of the news media? That is a role which can be perfect for the fluent-English-speaking Netanyahu.

 

[a_unique_person]

One thing I found interesting in Googling is this map showing the Isreali settlements. I must admit I had not done that before, but was slightly amazed to see how many of the settlements were on the coast away from the Israel-proper borders, meaning travel and supplies to those settlements must be through Arab-settled areas--and most are near the Egyptian border, which has been known to leak arms at various times. I'm sure there was a good strategic reason for those locations, but they sure look moderately silly in terms of protection and security and logistics.

It's seems obvious, doesn't it?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/600594.html

But you came at the urging of the government of Israel, a government whose "greatest" security people, headed by Ariel Sharon, anticipated the problems in the Gaza Strip and conceived the "five fingers" plan to split the area by means of Jewish settlements. Because a Jewish settlement is always, always the border, the last furrow.

And you/we took up the challenge, the challenge of the fingers. You transformed an accursed land into an astonishing agricultural empire, with special crops that are exported to every corner of the world.

I remember well how we came to visit you in Gush Katif 22 years ago, when I wanted to leave Sde Eliahu. We met a young family with two infants, a tiny home and extensive hothouses in the glowing sand. We too wondered how to do it. How do you extract plants and saplings from such a vast nothingness?

But you, with infinite patience, with hard and demanding work, by trial and error, looked for the right and best crop - the one that would be suitable for our special climate and soil conditions. At the same time you enlarged your family, expanded the house and, along with all of us, turned Gush Katif into a fertile garden. Today, suddenly, ill winds are blowing, winds of destruction and evil, winds that are stronger than an east wind - winds that threaten to dry up this project, to uproot what lives and grows.

And the worst of it is that behind these winds is the same person who sent you, us. The same person who morning and evening explained to us how vital it was to settle the barren land, the accursed land; the same person whose feverish brain conceived the "five fingers" plan, the same one who already cut off one finger - Yamit - and sent its uprooted people to Gush Katif, too.

"Five fingers"? Sharon campaigned on settlements, now he has realised,after painting himself into a corner, that the "fingers" strategy was flawed.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: chiming-in with my 2¢

Israel modified their Merkava tank as an APC because of the desire for heavier armor than the M-113 APC. The lumbering tank/apc is not a future-thinking strategic program. It has limited use in the climate now taking shape between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
In fact, currently the IDF is negotiating to acquire German DINGO light-armored vehicles. The IDF has basically learned that the best way to fight in urban areas is with the D-9 and D-11 combat CAT bulldozers and just demolish everything in sight and level entire neighborhoods to the ground, eliminating all cover for the Palestinian militants/offenders. That is the threat hovering over the Palestinians if they refuse to demilitarize at this late juncture. The IDF is not about to pussy-foot around if things go to ◊◊◊◊ from this point forward.
The task of the Israeli military for the next few years will be in patrolling and border-policing along the length of the Security Barriers around Gaza, up North at Lebanon/Golan and on the new Eastern Fence.
The DINGO is perfect for this, and can even be retrofitted as a driverless-remote-vehicle.

Have you considered you might not need this special vehicles for the difficult problem of fighting in urban areas if the IDF was not uccupying them?

 

[webfusion]

read what I wrote

Right there, in the quote, is what I said:

The task of the Israeli military for the next few years will be in patrolling and border-policing along the length of the Security Barriers around Gaza, up North at Lebanon/Golan and on the new Eastern Fence.

Israel will not be uccupying (sic) and the Palestinians will be fully functioning as a sovereign within a demilitarized New Palestine State. That is the plan, as stated by the Israeli government, from Arik Sharon to Shimon Peres on down...
(and which is exactly why Bibi resigned, because he doesn't like this plan one bit).

If the Palestinians insist on supporting and maintaining their terror infrastructure and pursuing shootings and rocket / mortar and suicide attacks against Israel (including ground-to-air missile threats against Israel's civilian aircraft) then they can rightfully expect to be re-occupied. In spades.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: chiming-in with my 2¢

Have you considered you might not need this special vehicles for the difficult problem of fighting in urban areas if the IDF was not uccupying them?

Have you considered that Israel might not be occupying these areas had Arafat taken advantage of one of his opportunities to create an independent state?

 

[Cleopatra]

Perhaps someone could correct me but I believe the PLO and it's various fedayeen militia groups have the most international terror attacks on record. A close second would be Al Queda.

No I don't doubt that. PLO guerillas have participated even in terrorist attacks in Greece with 17N.They did the fatal mistake to become professional killers BUT we have to be fair here. How many of the PLO guerillas became international terrorists?

Islamic fundamentalism.

Israel's destruction.

As you know very well, in Politics it's of vital importance where you start from. Do me the favor just for once and try to see things the way I do.

First. We have to agree that the Palestinians must have a country. We must agree that they have equal,historical rights in the area because this is the truth zenith-nadir.I am not asking you to forget their violence, their absurd policy, the mistakes they have made I am asking you to aknowledge the right of the existence of a Palestinian State.

Once you accept that, once you start building your political rationale based on this fact you will see where logic will lead you.

Accepting their rights doesn't make any of us a traitor or a second rate patriot.

 

[zenith-nadir]

First. We have to agree that the Palestinians must have a country. We must agree that they have equal, historical rights in the area because this is the truth zenith-nadir.

I have always agreed that the Palestinians have the right to a state. Never in my life have I believed different.

The problem is that the Arabs/Palestinians rolled the dice to get their state in 1948 and lost that war, they rolled the dice '56 and lost that war too, they rolled the dice in '67 and lost the war, they rolled the dice in '73 and lost the war, they rolled the dice in '82 and lost the war, they rolled the dice in '88 and lost the first intifada and they rolled the dice in 2000 and lost the second intifada. Sorry but I ain't gonna sugar-coat the truth....the Palestinians lost, they had their chance, they made their moves and THEY LOST.... repeatedly. Period, end of story.

Had the Palestinians chosen a different method of negotiation with Israel other than wars, international terrorism, murdering Olympic athletes and suicide bombing Israeli women and children perhaps their fate would be different today. But it isn't.... and I will not obscure that REALITY one bit. Their plight was created by their own hand.

As harsh as I may seem I truely believe the losers in war do not "win", or get to make the rules, or get to dictate policy. So if the Palestinians really want a country then they have to chose another method to get it than suicide bombing and terrorism.

[edited to add]

Here is EXACTLY what I am talking about:

Red Cross leaves 'lawless' Gaza - August 10, 2005

The Red Cross has shut down its field activities in the Gaza Strip because of growing lawlessness in Palestinian areas in the build-up to Israel’s pullout next week.

The move came after a surge in kidnappings as powerful clans have seized Western hostages to use as bargaining tools in disputes with Mahmoud Abbas’s increasingly weak Palestinian Authority security forces.

The decision was taken after the Red Cross office in Khan Younis was shot at by members of an unknown militant group. Two UN staff were also briefly kidnapped and it was the fourth western kidnapping of Westerners in three weeks.

Israel didn't kidnap and shoot at the Red Cross PALESTINIANS DID... and now the Red Cross said fine, 'F'-you Palestinians, we are outta here. The Palestinians plight is by their own hand and I will never obscure that truth.