Netanyahu resigns over Gaza

[Hutch]

...which is the heading in my local paper today (page A6). Or as I prefer to call him, Not-yet-you-yahoo (stolen from the Cartalk guys on NPR)

Guess it shouldn't be surprising, he is after all a politician who believes in Greater Israel and even more so that things would be better if he was in charage, so he is positioning himself to the right of Sharon (not an easy thing to do, IMHO) in case the Gaza pullout and aftermath goes in the toilet (and anyone who knows how it will end up probably also has a plan for peace in Iraq--again, IMHO).

One thing I found interesting in Googling is this map showing the Isreali settlements. I must admit I had not done that before, but was slightly amazed to see how many of the settlements were on the coast away from the Israel-proper borders, meaning travel and supplies to those settlements must be through Arab-settled areas--and most are near the Egyptian border, which has been known to leak arms at various times. I'm sure there was a good strategic reason for those locations, but they sure look moderately silly in terms of protection and security and logistics.

Can't believe I'm starting a Middle-East thread. I give it five posts before it degenerates (11 posts if Mycroft, Aupo and Fool are still suspended)

 

[Ian Osborne]

Can't believe I'm starting a Middle-East thread. I give it five posts before it degenerates (11 posts if Mycroft, Aupo and Fool are still suspended)

Don't worry - Skepic's still here.

 

[Hutch]

Re: Re: Netanyahu resigns over Gaza

Don't worry - Skepic's still here.

Or demon....guess I'd better work at padding this thread before they discover.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Re: Re: Re: Netanyahu resigns over Gaza

Or demon....guess I'd better work at padding this thread before they discover.

Watch out for Zenith-Nadir too!

Come to think of it, watch out for Darat - we're gonna get banned from the Politics section if we keep this up!

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Netanyahu resigns over Gaza

Watch out for Zenith-Nadir too!

BOO!

Netanyahu is a bit of a wild card and he said:

"This isn't the government that I joined. The disengagement contradicts the Likud's principles and the mandate we were given. The government is acting blindly against all of the warnings,"

He told reporters that the Gaza pullout is endangering Israel by creating a "base for Islamic terror" in Gaza. He said such warnings by security officials were being ignored by the government.

link to statements

Other factors are Sharon and Netanyahu don't like each other very much and Netanyahu wants the leadership of the Likud.

 

[Hutch]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Netanyahu resigns over Gaza

BOO!

Well, I said I wasn't ever going to reply to ZN since he lied on me months ago, but I can't help but to be a sucker for a sense of humor....

He told reporters that the Gaza pullout is endangering Israel by creating a "base for Islamic terror" in Gaza.

Which, based on a number of your prior posts, it already is....

Other factors are Sharon and Netanyahu don't like each other very much and Netanyahu wants the leadership of the Likud.

I'll admit my ignorance of much of internal Israeli politics (which apparently in my limited knowledge seems to be based on the Italian model of many parties and politicians waving their hands and shouting very loudly), but Netanyahu impresses me as someone who says whatever he thinks will get him back into power.....at least Sharon, whatever ones' personal opinion of him may be, tends to be ramrod-straight when it comes to his opinions--damn-the-torpedos type.

Split Likud = Labor Government?

 

[Cleon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Netanyahu resigns over Gaza

Other factors are Sharon and Netanyahu don't like each other very much and Netanyahu wants the leadership of the Likud.

I'd actually go so far as to say that's the dominant factor. Netanyahu and Sharon have been vying for Party leadership ever since Netanyahu got voted out. Sharon appointed him Foreign Minister to quell some of that, but Sharon's been using the disengagement plan to try and force a division. He's been threatening to resign over it for a year or so now.

 

[Cleon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Netanyahu resigns over Gaza

I'll admit my ignorance of much of internal Israeli politics (which apparently in my limited knowledge seems to be based on the Italian model of many parties and politicians waving their hands and shouting very loudly)

It's a multi-party Parliamentary system, so there's an element of chaos, but it generally works out.

, but Netanyahu impresses me as someone who says whatever he thinks will get him back into power.....at least Sharon, whatever ones' personal opinion of him may be, tends to be ramrod-straight when it comes to his opinions--damn-the-torpedos type.

Pretty much. Netanyahu has also had his share of corruption investigations.

Split Likud = Labor Government?

Possibly. But then, Labor is part of the ruling coalition, so in a sense it's already partly a Labor government.

Assuming Likud split down the middle, Labor might get a plurality in the next election, but they'd be forced to form an alliance with one or the other Likud faction in order to stay in power. And the moment that the Baby Bibi (sorry, couldn't resist) decided to bolt, the government would fall apart. So any Labor-Likud alliance would therefore be decidedly moderate.

I think what's more likely is that Netanyahu will eventually find himself persona non grata in Likud, and get out of politics entirely. That or go and join Moledet (or some other similarly right-wing party).

 

[Lucky]

And good riddance.

Actually, I think he has made a career blunder (I’m pleased to say). He’s hoping the Gaza withdrawal will go badly (which could unfortunately be the case). He also thinks this will be blamed on the government, but I believe he has misjudged the situation and most Israelis will blame the extremist settlers and those who were seen as supporting them (including him).

There are large numbers of moderate Israelis who are prepared to give qualified support to Sharon but are unlikely to swallow Netanyahu. This will just make him more unpopular, and I doubt whether the Likud wants an unpopular leader. He has probably damaged his chances quite seriously.

From Cleon:
It's a multi-party Parliamentary system, so there's an element of chaos, but it generally works out.

How can you say that? In my opinion the lunatic electoral system, which generally ensures that the government has to rely on the support of extremist parties, bears a large part of the blame for the continuing mess.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Which, based on a number of your prior posts, it already is....

I kinda have a mission to debunk the great myth that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades are "resistance fighters" working under the umbrella of Palestinian Nationalism.

For instance:

Police free two foreign hostages in Gaza - Aug. 8 2005 (UPI)

GAZA, Aug. 8 (UPI) -- Palestinian security forces Monday released two foreign U.N. employees who had been kidnapped in the Gaza Strip, police sources said.

They said a joint force from security forces and military intelligence stormed a house in Khan Younes in the southern part of Gaza and exchanged fire with the kidnappers before freeing the hostages.

Often, Palestinian groups and families resort to kidnapping of foreigners to put pressure on the authorities.

Palestinian Legal System Shut in Protest - Sat Aug 6, 2005 - 11:25 PM ET

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Palestinian judges and lawyers shut down the Palestinian legal system Saturday until further notice to protest recent attacks against senior legal officials. The shutdown was announced in a statement signed by judges and lawyers.

Earlier in the week in Gaza City, an explosive device was detonated outside the home of former Palestinian Justice Minister Zuhair Sourani, while a separate blast damaged a wall outside the home of the Palestinian Authority's attorney general in the city, Hussein Abu Assi.

The authority of Palestinian security and legal institutions has greatly diminished as the influence of militants has grown in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. In some instances, Palestinian militants have kidnapped Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel from courthouses during trials and killed them.

This is the kinda crap Netanyahu is refering to when he says the pullout will make Gaza a "base for Islamic terror".

 

[Cleon]

How can you say that?

Typing! Sorry, couldn't resist.

In my opinion the lunatic electoral system, which generally ensures that the government has to rely on the support of extremist parties, bears a large part of the blame for the continuing mess.

They have to rely on their support, but that doesn't mean they have to support the third parties. If you'll notice, the main thrust of the ruling coalition has remained rather moderate even when forming a coalition with these parties. Moledet, for example, was part of Sharon's administration, yet he has not--to my knowledge--begun the forcible expulsion of all Palestinians, a key aspect of Moledet's programme. Shas, a right-wing nutjob party, was part of Ehud Barak's administration, yet--until they withdrew and forced an election--they had very little influence on Barak's policies.

I actually think having a multi-party system is beneficial to democracy; it ensures that third parties are heard, rather than swallowed up by one of the two ruling parties. (a la US.) It's not perfect, and you wind up having moonbats in positions of influence, but the alternative is to effectively force people to vote for Tweedledum versus Tweedledumber.

 

[davefoc]

My reaction to this thing was that it was another piece of evidence that US policy plays a huge role in maintaining the hostilities.

Here we have a national Israeli leader saying that Israel should continue to expend massive resources to maintain colonies in one of the most densely populated areas on earth. And a good part of that population is opposed to these Israeli colonies.

Where have these resources come from to build and defend these colonial outposts? Largely the US. Does anybody think that any kind of consensus could be developed in Israel to force these colonies into the Gaza strip without the massive US aid? I doubt it. If the average Israeli citizen thought that the money to build, subsidize and defend these colonies was actually coming out his tax dollars I think it is very likely that the Israeli expansion policy would be gone or greatly slowed down days after the US aid was turned off.

 

[Art Vandelay]

What, has money suddenly ceased being fungible? Or do Israeli just not realize that it is? I think that terrorism is a much bigger explanation for the willingness to spend so much.

 

[SezMe]

Actually, I think he has made a career blunder (I’m pleased to say). He’s hoping the Gaza withdrawal will go badly (which could unfortunately be the case).

What does "go badly" really mean? I know the answer depends on your POV, but since you were writing about Israel policy, presumably that would be the POV of your answer. Also, what would have to happen for it to "go well."

I'd also be interested in the same answers from other POVs.

I am serious in these questions because I read the news and read the threads here about this subject and the only thing I know is that I don't know any good solutions or even policies that might lead thereto.

 

[zenith-nadir]

My reaction to this thing was that it was another piece of evidence that US policy plays a huge role in maintaining the hostilities.

I disagree 100%. U.S. policy didn't create the PLO, U.S. policy didn't create Abu Nidal, Black September, Hamas, Islamic Jihad or the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades. These groups were under Arafat's direct or indirect command and were responsible for thousands of bombings, hijackings, assassinations and other attacks since 1965. Arafat pumped millions of dollars into these terror groups, he even was caught red-handed by Israel trying to import $100,000,000 worth of arms for his terror groups on a Palestinian Authority-owned freighter, the Karine A in 2002. That is after he signed how many peace agreements with Israel dave?

Not only is the PLO's history of international hijackings, kidnappings and murders ignored at JREF, for some reason you blame settlements and US policy for "maintaining the hostilities".

U.S. policy has been to end the hostilities since the Carter Administration. Israeli policy has been to end the hostilities since Menachem Begin was Prime Minister. The stumbling block was the duplicitous Palestinian policy under Arafat which financed and continued the hostilities using international aid money.

 

[davefoc]

ZN wrote:

I disagree 100%.

I was pretty sure you would. Your view, I believe, is that colonization of Israel by European Jews on land that was occupied by somebody else was OK, but the resistance of the people that were there to that colonization was evil.

You believe that closing land to purchase by the indigenous population was OK, and that the resistance by the indigenous population to this kind of policy was evil.

You believe that working to create a Jewish only state by forcing the Indigenous Jewish population to fire its Palestinain workers was OK and that resistance to this policy by the Palestinians was evil.

You believe that the continual expanision of Israel since 1967 might not have been OK but that it doesn't contribute to the continuing violence against Israel by some Palestinians.

You believe that billions of dollars dumped into Israel that subsidizes the continued expansion of Israel by the US somehow reduces the risk of terroism in the US.

You and I might agree on many things ZN, but on the issues above I would agree that we disagree.

 

[Mycroft]

ZN wrote:

Dave, I can't recall ZN ever having said any of those things.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Dave, I can't recall ZN ever having said any of those things.

Welcome back

 

[geni]

Arafat pumped millions of dollars into these terror groups, he even was caught red-handed by Israel trying to import $100,000,000 worth of arms for his terror groups on a Palestinian Authority-owned freighter, the Karine A in 2002.

$? Not US $. total value in that currency was around 3 million on the open market. I can't at short notice think of any dollar worth around 0.03 us$

 

[Mycroft]

Welcome back

Thanks!