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Need Help with Iron Microsphere Quotes

Ivan Kminek said:
Hi, Oystein,

I think that now is better to wait until some results from Jim's research are out.

- As I remarked in "your microsphere thread", different paints containing iron oxide could provide quite different results. Namely iron oxide pigment particle size can play a quite important role, as for behavior of samples during heating under air and formation of microspheres - I think).
- Remember experiments of Henryco: he didn't find any microspheres in burned red chips (perhaps they were different from chips burned in Bentham paper, but... who knows).
- We should also remember that according to Sunstealer, microspheres are formed basically from gray layers during heating of red-gray chips. So, potential Almond's samples should contain such gray layers of oxidized steel.
I think that experiments on some accidental primer can easily bring more confusion than clarification, if no microspheres are found.

But, if Almond agrees, why not? It could be fun:cool:
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If I had an electron microscpope and a way of doing XEDS charts, I'd be busy burning all kinds of things all day long in my kitchen these days :D
 
Oystein said:
If I had an electron microscpope and a way of doing XEDS charts, I'd be busy burning all kinds of things all day long in my kitchen these days :D
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burn them and use a magnet......then you are a long way towards showing that iron rich thingy-jigs are common. One can always check for spheroidicity later.
 
I am still not clear on two points.

(1)At what temperatures could we expect a layer of epoxy coating to react with an underlying layer of iron oxide to begin reducing the iron oxide?

(2) Would epoxy mixed with iron oxide reduce the iron oxide at that same temperature?

I know that smelting iron by the bloomery process takes place at temperatures far lower than those required for the production of steel or cast iron. It seems to me that a large office fire with a good draught should produce nearly those temperatures.
 
leftysergeant said:
I am still not clear on two points.

(1)At what temperatures could we expect a layer of epoxy coating to react with an underlying layer of iron oxide to begin reducing the iron oxide?

(2) Would epoxy mixed with iron oxide reduce the iron oxide at that same temperature?

I know that smelting iron by the bloomery process takes place at temperatures far lower than those required for the production of steel or cast iron. It seems to me that a large office fire with a good draught should produce nearly those temperatures.
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I'm trying to find some info again, Lefty, with no success so far.

If you allow me again one "self-promoting post" (a post reffering to my own simple experiments): my Laclede epoxy paint imitation has a composition close to the real WTC paint. Micrographs of the pristine imitation and imitation after heating up to 700 degrees C under air can be seen here and here.

In principle, XEDS analysis of the burned Laclede paint imitation could show us experimentally, if some iron oxide used in this formulation was reduced to iron.

Consider this:
- Oxygen in this paint imitation is present in a) epoxy binder (70 wt %); b) inorganics: iron oxide (12 %), aluminosilicate (16.5 %) and potassium chromate (1.2 %).
- Oxygen content in all inorganics is given by their formulae and oxygen content in epoxy used (Henkel brand) can be determined using e.g. elemental analysis (this method precisely determines carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen content in any organic material, "the rest" to 100 % must be oxygen for such an epoxy resin).
- Paint imitation after burning is still basically red, which means that (almost) all epoxy binder was "burned out" (no organics left). This is clear also from thermogravimetric (TGA) curve measured under air, see here.
- Aluminosilicate used in this imitation should not be transformed to anything else during heating to 700 degrees C (but I can't say this for sure). As regards chromate, we can neglect it for any calculations (with its 1.2 % content).
- Let me say that I will measure oxygen to iron ratio in pristine and burned paint imitation by XEDS (and I can do it in principle, since I have SEM microscopes with XEDS probes "in house" (in my institute). By subtracting the oxygen from epoxy binder (which "disappeared" during burning), I can get some idea if oxygen content in inorganics is lower than in unburned sample (i.e. some iron oxide was reduced to iron or some iron compounds with lower oxidation number).

But, there are some factors which make precise comparison of the oxygen/iron ratio in unburned and burned samples difficult or even impossible (?). Namely, XEDS can't give reliable quantitative results, as concerns determination of oxygen (and carbon), as explained by Almond. Moreover, aluminosilicate can be dehydrated at high temperatures, which can lower the overall oxygen content (and overall mass) of inorganics.

In summary: such experiments would be easily just a waste time and all this my elaborate contribution is a waste of time as well - but still it is a kind of fun for me:cool:
 
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Oystein said:
Couldn't you do a couple of simple experiments some time? Something along the lines of
- find a bit of old steel with red primer
- knock some of the paint off with a hammer
- look at it to see if it contains iron oxide and some organic vehicle
- heat it on a hot plate till it burns away
- look again for microspheres
- measure their iron content

Snap a few photos of what your doing, maybe with a nice greeting to JREF on a paper card so we know you took those pics...


:D
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I agree it would be fun, but I'm very limited in my ability to conduct research with no customer (i.e. no one paying for it) and no research project (i.e. no one planning on publishing it). I don't mean to diminish the importance of what you, Chris and others have been calling for, and I will certainly be interested in the results when they come out. But in my personal opinion, this project would ultimately waste my time. In the opinion of my supervisor, anything related to 9/11 thermite studies is as useful as chasing leaves in the wind. She has, on several occasions, forbidden me from doing my own research on these materials. I don't ascribe any malicious intent on her part, but from her point of view, it doesn't do anything to benefit our organization, so it's a waste of time. Do not get me started on what she thinks about birthday celebrations (we don't have them).
 
The Almond said:
She has, on several occasions, forbidden me from doing my own research on these materials. I don't ascribe any malicious intent on her part, but from her point of view, it doesn't do anything to benefit our organization, so it's a waste of time. Do not get me started on what she thinks about birthday celebrations (we don't have them).
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She is clearly in on it bro, I would add her to the shill list and send it to Alex Jones to be strung up when they take over
 
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Hm, I see no thread list and no page counter.

Is it a button that says "start new thread"?

All I have in the bottom left corner is the "Posting rules".
 
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