Daylightstar
Philosopher
Many irrational people have a strong urge to tell about their belief, experience or studies.
Never does it lead to anything of real value for others.
Merged Near Death Experience Study
- Thread starter dogjones
- Start date
Many irrational people have a strong urge to tell about their belief, experience or studies.
Never does it lead to anything of real value for others.
Oh, if that's the the custom, this should be moved. I'll request it.
ETA: Since there's already a thread, this should probably just be deleted.
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Daylightstar
Philosopher
If you really want that (moved), you could report your own post indicating such. The report can contain explanation if needed.
Or possibly merged
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Daylightstar
Philosopher
I have reported my previous post with a request to merge.
If you really want that (moved), you could report your own post indicating such. The report can contain explanation if needed.
Or possibly merged
I did.
Daylightstar
Philosopher
Okidoki.
Looking at the post resuscitation interview questions from table 1:
Seems to me like nothing but leading questions.
Agreed. In fact, it's pretty darn obvious to me it's nothing but leading questions.
Daylightstar
Philosopher
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
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- Dec 10, 2008
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A dreamcatcher?I refuse to merge without protection!
dlorde
Philosopher
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2007
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- 6,864
Wow - I hadn't seen that before - and even using that questionnaire they got very little of interest.Orphia Nay said:
Agreed. In fact, it's pretty darn obvious to me it's nothing but leading questions.
One thing I'm curious about is the effect of CPR on blood supply to the brain - these patients were all in dedicated cardiac facilities, so would have some form of circulatory assistance during cardiac arrest, intended to keep the major organs, especially the brain, alive. It doesn't seem surprising that some residual activity would remain, given minimal perfusion - a flat EEG only tells you any activity is undetectable at the scalp.
At the risk of being a shamless self-publicist, there are a couple of papers directly pertinent to this whole discussion here;
Braithwaite, J.J., & Dewe, H (2014). Occam's chainsaw: Neuroscientific nails in the coffin of dualist notions of the near-death experience (NDE). The [UK] Skeptic magazine, 25 (2), 24-31.
link here
http://www.academia.edu/10060970/Oc...ist_notions_of_the_Near-death_experience_NDE_
Braithwaite, J. J. (2008). Towards a cognitive neuroscience of the dying brain. The [UK] Skeptic, 21(2), 8-16.
https://www.academia.edu/574245/Towards_a_Cognitive_Neuroscience_of_the_Dying_Brain
These papers pretty much tackle the whole discussion and provide a lot of citations / scientific evidence to back up the argument.
An important clarification I would add is this. Many of you here have highlighted the role of oxygen starvation - which is fair and good. However, not entirely the best and most accurate way to approach this and it causes no end of confusion amongst woo's. The reality is the hallucinatory imagery of the NDE is based in neural disinhibition (or over-excitation of neural systems if you prefer). Now, of course oxygen starvation, anoxia, hypoxia, are trigger processes for neural disinhibition - but - many things are responsible for neural disinhibition, so anoxia is not necessary for the NDE. The key is disinhibition, no matter how it occurs. Interesting there are documented differences in the imagery experienced by those truly near death and those who only believed themselves to be so - and the key difference is the degree of neural disinhibition present.
It is likely, in terms of a 'typical' death that disinhibition will be triggered when the heart arrests and oxygen is no longer being pumped effectly to the brain. So there is a relationship between the concepts. But as migraine and epilepsy show, you can get disinhibition in a brain where there is plenty of oxygen.
PS - take a look at the arguments about Syncopy in the first paper - often forgotten in discussions these days....shame really. There is a condition known as cardioinhibitory syncopy where the heart arrests and the EEG goes flat....after a while things come back online and hey presto.....patients report NDE type hallucinations....coincidence?
Braithwaite, J.J., & Dewe, H (2014). Occam's chainsaw: Neuroscientific nails in the coffin of dualist notions of the near-death experience (NDE). The [UK] Skeptic magazine, 25 (2), 24-31.
link here
http://www.academia.edu/10060970/Oc...ist_notions_of_the_Near-death_experience_NDE_
Braithwaite, J. J. (2008). Towards a cognitive neuroscience of the dying brain. The [UK] Skeptic, 21(2), 8-16.
https://www.academia.edu/574245/Towards_a_Cognitive_Neuroscience_of_the_Dying_Brain
These papers pretty much tackle the whole discussion and provide a lot of citations / scientific evidence to back up the argument.
An important clarification I would add is this. Many of you here have highlighted the role of oxygen starvation - which is fair and good. However, not entirely the best and most accurate way to approach this and it causes no end of confusion amongst woo's. The reality is the hallucinatory imagery of the NDE is based in neural disinhibition (or over-excitation of neural systems if you prefer). Now, of course oxygen starvation, anoxia, hypoxia, are trigger processes for neural disinhibition - but - many things are responsible for neural disinhibition, so anoxia is not necessary for the NDE. The key is disinhibition, no matter how it occurs. Interesting there are documented differences in the imagery experienced by those truly near death and those who only believed themselves to be so - and the key difference is the degree of neural disinhibition present.
It is likely, in terms of a 'typical' death that disinhibition will be triggered when the heart arrests and oxygen is no longer being pumped effectly to the brain. So there is a relationship between the concepts. But as migraine and epilepsy show, you can get disinhibition in a brain where there is plenty of oxygen.
PS - take a look at the arguments about Syncopy in the first paper - often forgotten in discussions these days....shame really. There is a condition known as cardioinhibitory syncopy where the heart arrests and the EEG goes flat....after a while things come back online and hey presto.....patients report NDE type hallucinations....coincidence?
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Thank you for these; very interesting reading.
ETA: You might want to check out the ESP thread on the Science subforum. There's a person there who doesn't think this kind of neuroscientific research/understanding is being done, or even possible.
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Nonpareil
The Terrible Trivium
Not particularly, though believers would argue the point.
That's where the whole "ignorance" thing comes into play, though.
Nonpareil
The Terrible Trivium
I'm pretty sure you just agreed with me!
I did do that, yes.
There is a theory that deluded people use a process known as abductive inference (reasoning backwards) to set up, hold and maintain delusional beliefs.
I've always wondered if this is the case with believers in the paranormal.
The evidence I am aware of is in relation to Capgras delusion mainly and onther monothematic delusions (Coltheart's two-factor theory)
Woo's believe so strongly, yet must know at some level that they know so little about crucial information. Ah well, ho hum......
I've always wondered if this is the case with believers in the paranormal.
The evidence I am aware of is in relation to Capgras delusion mainly and onther monothematic delusions (Coltheart's two-factor theory)
Woo's believe so strongly, yet must know at some level that they know so little about crucial information. Ah well, ho hum......
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
Thinking about that I'm reminded of the famous anecdote about Martin Luther. It's said that he once saw the devil in his study, and threw an inkwell at him. When asked later how he could prove it had been the devil, he pointed to the inkstain on the wall.