Merged Near Death Experience Study

[Belz...]

It doesn't really take much open-mindedness to can see that being at death's door and yet surviving is going to have a profound affect on most people.

I think most woo stem from this principle: it means something to me, therefore it's true. Most people simply don't have the intellectual capacity to ignore their feelings.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Most people simply don't have the intellectual capacity to ignore their feelings.

That's what I call woo.
Maybe you must read a book of Ap Dijksterhuis. A dutch psychologist. He teaches us that, sometimes, feelings are informative.

 

[Slowvehicle]

That's what I call woo.
Maybe you must read a book of Ap Dijksterhuis. A dutch psychologist. He teaches us that, sometimes, feelings are informative.

Can you demonstrate where anyone in this thread has said, or implied, that feelings are not "informative"?

What you are claiming about the suite of hallucinations experienced by people who do not die are "evidence" of "another dimension".

False dichotomy? Excluded middle? Special pleading?

 

[MaartenVergu]

Most people simply don't have the intellectual capacity to ignore their feelings.

So, you think that people who listen to their feelings 'don't have the intellectual capacity' to ignore them. You seem to know nothing about psychology.

 

[Belz...]

So, you think that people who listen to their feelings 'don't have the intellectual capacity' to ignore them.

That is nothing like what I said. Your ability to understand the written word seems awfully limited. I suspect that your ability to understand the spoken word is similarily impaired. It's probably for lack of effort, in your case.

You seem to know nothing about psychology.

I know enough to know that people are dominated by their feelings more often than not, and are nigh unable to remove themselves from the equation.

 

[steenkh]

That's what I call woo.
Maybe you must read a book of Ap Dijksterhuis. A dutch psychologist. He teaches us that, sometimes, feelings are informative.

Of course they are. But informative about what?

 

[Nonpareil]

That's what I call woo.
Maybe you must read a book of Ap Dijksterhuis. A dutch psychologist. He teaches us that, sometimes, feelings are informative.

Feelings can be informative, but they are also not admissible as evidence in the study of such phenomena as NDEs.

 

[Belz...]

They're only informative about what you feel, though.

 

[CORed]

My best argument is that there are some studies with induced cardic arrest in people and in animals. When you induce cardiac arrest, then within one second the blood flow to the brain is zero. Within one second people are unconscious. The body reflexes are gone, wich is a function of the cortex of the brain. The brainstemreflexes are gone. People don't breath anymore. When you measure the EEG of the brain, after an average of 15 seconds: a total flatline. So, in the studies of induced cardiac arrest in people or animals, the brain doesn't function anymore after an average of 15 seconds.

Ergo, in the studies of NDE's, most people must have a flat EEG after an average of 15 seconds and yet they have an enhanced consciousness, a coherent experience and all the logic thinking faculties seem to function well.

There is no evidence, and probably no way of proving that the so-called "near death experience" actually happened at the moment of cardiac arrest. All we know is that some subset of people who have a cardiac arrest have similar dreams at some time between the time they lost consciousness and the time they regained consciousness. It is entirely possible (and IMO most likely) that the dreams occur at some time before or after the actual time of cardiac arrest. My personal hunch is that they occur while the brain is "rebooting" after the cardiac arrest.

ETA: The claim that certain aspects of so called NDE are universal doesn't really hold water either. Examples of people having different experiences or no experiences at all have been cited in this thread. It seems that there is quite a bit of cherry-picking going on.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Belz... you can read this about 'feelings as information Theory'.. Seems intresting.
But of course, it's off topic.

 

[MaartenVergu]

I'm convinced that there is no evidence. And I also admit that I'm biased: I really hope NDE's are true. That this light really exists. But 'to hope' is no evidence and not a good position to investigate something.
I'm waiting for more research, like the Aware study.

 

[Belz...]

Belz... you can read this about 'feelings as information Theory'.. Seems intresting.

It seems so, but it's not. Feelings are chemical signals that give you incentives to act. They are not in any way information about the objective world around you. Too many people don't understand that, and think that, for instance, feeling fear about a thing means that the thing is dangerous.

 

[Donn]

I'm convinced that there is no evidence. And I also admit that I'm biased: I really hope NDE's are true. That this light really exists. But 'to hope' is no evidence and not a good position to investigate something.

Well said, Maartenn; and thanks for saying it. I really mean that.

 

[steenkh]

I'm convinced that there is no evidence. And I also admit that I'm biased: I really hope NDE's are true. That this light really exists.

There are so many different types of NDEs, but for those who experience the light it seems real enough, so if you see this light in the fullness of time, just enjoy it.

But 'to hope' is no evidence and not a good position to investigate something.

It is good to see that you realise this. If NDEs were representing physical reality, we would have to chuck out the best proven theories of all times, and the chance of that is slim indeed.

Anyway, it does not matter if NDEs are physical or not, because when you have them you are not in a position to tell the difference.

 

[MaartenVergu]

I agree. But there is room for doubt.
See also: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-24509/Near-death-patients-afterlife.html

 

[Belz...]

I agree. But there is room for doubt

Doubt isn't the fact of believing in whatever you want. At some point you have to go with the evidence, and the evidence doesn't point to an afterlife.

Sorry.

 

[steenkh]

I agree. But there is room for doubt.
See also: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-24509/Near-death-patients-afterlife.html

There are obvious flaws in that study:

They recalled feelings of peace and joy, of time speeding up, heightened senses, lost awareness of body, seeing a bright light, entering another world, encountering a mystical being or deceased relative and coming to a point of no return.

So they experienced a lot of different things with no real common denominator. Just like you would expect from hallucinations. It would have been more convincing if they all met their deceased relatives and had a chat with them.

There is also the point that we have been making over and over again: these NDEs do not have to be formed while the patients are "clinically dead" (whatever that means). It is much more likely that they are formed in the minutes before waking up. Why do the doctors inn this study assume that the experiences are formed while dead? That is exactly what would be impossible in physics, so that should have been their last hypothesis, not their first.

 

[Kathie Bondar]

Not at all.

I do, however, know more than those who go out of their way not to learn anything which might contradict their cherished beliefs.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Kathie Bondar]

Can you demonstrate where anyone in this thread has said, or implied, that feelings are not "informative"?

What you are claiming about the suite of hallucinations experienced by people who do not die are "evidence" of "another dimension".

False dichotomy? Excluded middle? Special pleading?

I just want to point out that hallucination and telepathy are two different things

 

[Slowvehicle]

I just want to point out that hallucination and telepathy are two different things

I may have missed something. Are you claiming that the suite of hallucinations often collectively referred to as "NDEs" are an example of telepathy?