Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

[manofthesea]

Colville Reservation

I did have a friend growing up on Beacon Hill who spent most of his childhood on the Colville, and he mentioned a couple times to me that "Bigfoot is real", knowing of my encounter. I never really thought much about that being that the Colville res is in eastern Washington, the 'desert'. But now, actually reading a little bit about the stories of sasquatch, and the amount of 'green' mountains and rivers and creeks out east it does make sense to me. East of the Cascades, that is.

 

[kitakaze]

The Dzoonokwa - Dzonokwa - Tsonokwa - Dzunukwa, was supposedly a giant, black, fur-covered critter with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair, that walked upright and was constantly on the lookout for misbehaving children to stuff in a basket, which she carried on her big hairy back.

According to the presented visual documentation, sasquatch ladies have great big, rock-hard boobs set in the middle of the torso.

 

[kitakaze]

This is at least the fifth time I've asked.

You offered a suggestion and I checked it and found no evidence of it being a term put forth by bigfoot enthusiasts as a correlary to bigfoot other than yourself. Thus I asked you that question. Do you understand?

Then it's all mine. I suggest that baxbaxwalanuksiwe is sasquatch.

I'll take that as an admission that you understand that I never claimed that bigfoot enthusiasts believe that baxbaxwalanuksiwe is a correlary of bigfoot, no apologies necessary. So you think it is. That's odd, why do you think a singular man-eating giant with four man-eating bird companions is a correlary of bigfoot? Do you know of any incidents of bigfoots eating people?

However, if you'd check your preferred source, wikipedia, it shows the word when dealing with dzonokwa.

Yes, it erroneously states that dsonoqua is called sasquatch by other NorthWest coast tribes. We covered that on page three.

 

[William Parcher]

Are you a contemporary of Loren Coleman?

are you on personal terms with Mr. Coleman

You are so clueless that the proper term never enters your mind. Try nemesis.

The better question about Baxbaxwalanuksiwe is this: Why is it not on the list from Mizokami, Franzoni, and Glickman? Did they not run across it? Did they decide to leave it off the list?

Take a peek.

Central to the Hamatsa ceremonies is the story of some brothers who got lost on a hunting trip and found a strange house with red smoke emanating from its roof. When they visited the house they found its owner gone, but one of the house posts was a living woman with her legs rooted into the floor, and she warned them about the frightful owner of the house, who was named Baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man-eating giant with four terrible man-eating birds for his companions. In short the men are able to destroy the man-eating giant and gain mystical power and supernatural treasures from him.

More.

Is this your Bigfoot, MOTS?

 

[William Parcher]

KKZ, Baxbax was a real Bigfoot, and the Kwakwaka'wakw saw him just like all the other Indians. The problem is that they screwed up their sighting reports by adding bizarre elements just like everyone else.

The red-smoking house with the talking support post is just fluff. The man-eating birds were not his companions. These were just ordinary man-eating Thunderbirds that were actually terrified of his jet plane roars. They weren't hunting men with him, they were fleeing him.

The story of Baxbax is good evidence for the existence of Bigfoots and Thunderbirds.

 

[kitakaze]

Read your last sentence.

I have looked further into dsonoqua. Just today, for example. I have certainly found nothing about her that makes me think she is a correlary of the Kwakwaka'wakw for a race of 8ft giant bipedal primates living in their vicinity. She is said to be slow, dim-witted, and to have rather poor eyesight. She is said to steal children but to also sometimes bestow wealth. Not a whole lot of bigfoot going on there.

Do it or close the thread.

Let's be a little more civil, shall we? I don't presume to order you around. Looking into these things takes time. I don't post for a day or so and you call it evasion. You need to adjust the attitude a little, I think.

The next thing I was thinking to look into was the claimed representation of bigfoot in totem poles.

 

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by kitakaze
Let's do a check for things that bigfoot and Mr. Baxbax (I will presume to call him that) share in common. OK, first there's the giant size and then there's the... Oh wait. That's all there is.
​

You mean, that's all there is for your further research.

No Jstor membership, huh?

Jstor, Shmaystor. Let's see what a non-member can dig up.

Hamatsa (wiki)
the frightful owner of the house, who was named Baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man-eating giant with four terrible man-eating birds for his companions.
Kwakiutl_mythology (wiki)
The Hamatsa dancer represents the spirit of Baxbaxwalanuksiwe ("Man-Eater at the North End of the World"; who can transform into various man-eating birds and was said to have mouths all over his body.

But, WIki should always be taken with a grain of salt, nonetheless, it's a good place to start. Going on, then.

[URL="http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hamatsa.html%5DHamatsa"]http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hamatsa.html]Hamatsa dancers[/url]
The Hamatsa dancers represent a cannibal spirit who lives in the sky (Bakbakwalanooksiwae)... Bakbakwalanooksiwae is invisible and the Hamatsa dancers are thought to each represent one of his many mouths. His presence is made known though a strange whistling sound which is supposed to be the wind blowing through his millions of mouths.
Secret Societies And Their Tutelaries ( Originally Published Early 1900's )
Cannibals are common characters in the myths of the North-West, as elsewhere; but the Cannibal of the society is a particular personage who is supposed to dwell in the mountains with his servants, ...
The cult of the Cannibal probably originated among the Heiltsuk Kwakiutl, ...
The cannibal initiate among the Kwakiutl is called "hamatsa"
Baxbakualanuchsiwae is the Kwakiutl name for the Cannibal Spirit, ...
but the Cannibal himself is regarded as living at the north end of the world (as is the case with the Titanic beings of many Pacific-Coast myths), and it is quite possible that he is originally a war-god typified by the Aurora Borealis...

[URL="http://k17k.livejournal.com/2007/03/18/"]http://www.mask-and-more-masks.com/American-Masks.html]American Masks and the Kwakiutl[/url]
The dances were often connected with the initiation of novices. Possessed by wild spirits the novices would disappear into the woods to be given the ancestral rites and then reappear as fully fledged members of the society. The spirit which possessed them was Bakbakwalanooksiwae (Cannibal at the north end of the World ) who inspired them to eat human flesh.
Lastly from a text (available on PDF at www.canadiana.org) by Franz Boas, one that all the above is based on:
[URL="http://www.canadiana.org]From"]http://www.canadiana.org]From the pages of “The social organization and the secret societies of the Kwakiutl Indians” Boas[/url]
...As soon as he went out his face was covered and he was led away by a man...Then the man spoke;”My dear, do not be afraid. I want to give you magical power. This is my house. I am BaxbakualanuXsi'wae. You shall see everything in my house.”

So, to summarise.


He is a man. Who lives in a house. Who also speaks the language of men. (Boa)
The Pantheon article backs up the thought of him being a man by refering to him as being a particular personage.
He is invisible.
Has millions of mouths.
Can transform into birds.

Notably, I can not find in Franz Boas' accounts anything that describes him as a giant. There are references in other texts that say the Hamatsa dancers become giant sized, but not Baxbaxwalanuksiwe himself.

MOTS, I can't see anything in the above that would seem to point to Baxbaxwalanuksiwe being a bigfoot. ​

 

[manofthesea]

So, to summarise.[/FONT]


He is a man. Who lives in a house. Who also speaks the language of men. (Boa)
The Pantheon article backs up the thought of him being a man by refering to him as being a particular personage.
He is invisible.
Has millions of mouths.
Can transform into birds.

Notably, I can not find in Franz Boas' accounts anything that describes him as a giant. There are references in other texts that say the Hamatsa dancers become giant sized, but not Baxbaxwalanuksiwe himself.

MOTS, I can't see anything in the above that would seem to point to Baxbaxwalanuksiwe being a bigfoot. [/LEFT]

I'd like to know the Kwakiutl word for "millions", if you don't mind.

 

[manofthesea]

Simple Chart To Establish Probability

Pondering the correlations present between bigfoot and boqs of the Kwakiutl, I decided to produce a simple comparison.

Bigfoot: Physical description: large, bipedal, apeman
Location: (historically) PNW
Mystery: no accepted evidence, sightings, myths

Boqs: Physical description: giant, humanoid (as denoted by 'cannibalism')
Location: PNW
Mystery: associated with Secret society (man-eater)

As far as the million mouths, I seriously doubt the Kwakiutl had a word for million. And that puts the other added characterists in doubt.

Is there a better candidate?

 

[EHocking]

I'd like to know the Kwakiutl word for "millions", if you don't mind.

I have no idea. Don't speak the language. Since you wish to nitpick - we'll go with the other description of his mouths.

"Mouths all over his body".

Seems sufficient.

Do you know of any descriptions of bigfoot where the animal has more than one mouth?

That WAS the only point being made of course.

 

[EHocking]

Pondering the correlations present between bigfoot and boqs of the Kwakiutl, I decided to produce a simple comparison.

Simpler, by which you mean, "Ignoring all the physical descriptions that are awkward to my position".

Let's reiterate them,

He is a man. Who lives in a house. Who also speaks the language of men. (Boa)
The Pantheon article backs up the thought of him being a man by refering to him as being a particular personage.
He is invisible.
Has millions of mouths.
Can transform into birds.

[none of] Franz Boas' accounts ...describes him as a giant.
One I missed previously He uses native transport - a canoe.
http://www.canadiana.org/cgi-bin/pimg/b5c84520cf465ee6/0700/14288/0012.gif]Another oneUses fire to cook food.

Bigfoot: Physical description: large, bipedal, apeman
Location: (historically) PNW
Mystery: no accepted evidence, sightings, myths

Boqs: Physical description: giant,

I disagree. First hand accounts by Franz Boas does not mention a giant.

humanoid (as denoted by 'cannibalism')

No. First hand accounts by Franz Boas says man, not man-like or humanoid, but specifically, a man.

Location: PNW
Mystery: associated with Secret society (man-eater)

No mystery. The entity IS associated with a secret dance society that has been witnessed and described first hand by an anthropologist Franz Boas (and others).

As far as the million mouths, I seriously doubt the Kwakiutl had a word for million. And that puts the other added characterists in doubt.

From Boas' first hand accounts of their customs, they most certainly had a word for thousand (ie coppers were used as "IOU"s in exchanges of large numbers of items. He quotes numbers in the multiple thousand.)

It is more probably that someone described the Canibal spirit to Boas with having "a thousand, thousand mouths", than your unattributed doubt is accurate.

Is there a better candidate?

I'm not putting forward candidates, merely assessing the one you put forward.

In Summary:

Baxbaxwalanuksiwe:
Kwakatiutl call him a man, not a giant (first hand account (Boas))
can transform into birds
many mouths
lives in a house
uses a canoe
has a wife
has servants
speaks (a language that Kwakatiutl understand)
uses fire to cook food
a man-eater, described as cannibal, therefore, a man.
possibly invisible (Boas doesn't mention it in first hand accounts)


Man:
man sized
can not transform into birds
one mouth
lives in a house
uses a canoe
has a wife
has servants
speaks
uses fire to cook food
if a man-eater is a cannibal
visible

BF:
larger than a man
can not transform into birds
one mouth
doesn't build dwellings
doesn't build transport
no evidence of wedding ceremonies, therefore a mate, not a wife
no evidence of servants (human or otherwise)
does no use fire to cook food
does not speak, utters animal grunts.
I am not aware of any man-eating habits. If so, ever described as cannibalism?
visible (by your own account)

So what's the total of similar characteristics to BF?

Man: 9
BF : 1 (visibility).

I for one find the evidence to support your belief that this Cannibal Spirit is a Kwakatuitl description of bigfoot lacking severly when compared to the non-BF alternative.

 

[Correa Neto]

EHocking, some proponents will say there's evidence or speculate that bigfeet can speak, build nests and eat their dead, resulting in a better score for them...

 

[EHocking]

EHocking, some proponents will say there's evidence or speculate that bigfeet can speak, build nests and eat their dead, resulting in a better score for them...

... and that's just what it is - speculation. There's also a camp that speculates that BF is an invisible, multi-dimensional, shape-shifter too (see how open-minded I'm being about this?)

I presented first hand witness of the Wakakuitl legend itself.
With references. Facts, not speculation.

And with any falsifiable theory, it only requires one fact to falsify it.

Are there any descriptions of BF with more than one mouth?

 

[manofthesea]

Do You Mean What You Say?

Here's an excerpt from a letter from 1840, from the Reverend Elkanah Walker to Secretary Greene (Indian Affairs?). From the book "Indians of the Pacific Northwest" U. of Oklahoma Press.

"The Indians attributed their attrition to one particular superstition, as Walker reported to Secretary Greene on April 16, 1840. The Indians, he wrote, believed in a race of giants, "men stealers", who inhabited the top of a perpetually snow covered mountain on the west, from whose lofty heights they descended nightly to steal salmon and eat the fish raw. Approaching nearby villages and smelling strongly the monsters gave three whistles, hurled stones on houses, and snatched people away, leaving a "track...about a foot & a half long."

Note, Reverend Elkanah Walker lived with the Spokane Indians from 1838-1848.

And there's more. The same chapter (this book is in the Reference Section) also mentions nearby tribes, and corresponding creatures for each of the major Cascades Mountains.

 

[Cuddles]

I have split a large amount of this thread to AAH. Keep it on topic and stop the bickering or this thread will join most of the other bigfoot threads in being set to moderated status.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[EHocking]

...Note, Reverend Elkanah Walker lived with the Spokane Indians from 1838-1848.

And there's more. The same chapter (this book is in the Reference Section) also mentions nearby tribes, and corresponding creatures for each of the major Cascades Mountains.

We were discussing the Kwakatiutl legend of Baxbaxwalanuksiwe. What relevance does this Spokane legend have to do with a. my previous post or b. the discussion at hand?

Also, can you give a link to the document itself and not just references to BF websites?

 

[EHocking]

I have split a large amount of this thread to AAH. Keep it on topic and stop the bickering or this thread will join most of the other bigfoot threads in being set to moderated status.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

er, um.... AAH? What be that, a separate thread? Am I being dense?

 

[Orthoptera]

That would be the Abandon All Hope topic, down in the Members Only section.

 

[EHocking]

That would be the Abandon All Hope topic, down in the Members Only section.

Aah, thanks.

 

[manofthesea]

We were discussing the Kwakatiutl legend of Baxbaxwalanuksiwe. What relevance does this Spokane legend have to do with a. my previous post or b. the discussion at hand?

Also, can you give a link to the document itself and not just references to BF websites?

How about because the Spokane Indians, partly Salishan, are on the east side of the Cascades.

Multitudes of mouths presumably denotes that there are/were many of them.