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NASA Engineer (ret.) is a Twoofie?

(1) It couldn’t have been other than UA175 hijacked by Islamic extremists, because the passengers described the hijackers as well as that they were making many of the calls via cell phones;
No one said many of the calls were from cell phones. But nothing stops a cell phone from working in a plane, there are problems, but it works, I used one in flight before and after 911; they worked in 2001 with old models. How would Todd's mother know it was from a seat-back or cell phone?

(2) the FBI testifies years later not more than two cell-phone calls were made from all four planes combined;
I have used a cell phone in flight, it worked, but the engine noise was to loud to be practical. On commercial flight I have seen people use phones in flight. In cell phone technical data, there is nothing published which says a cell phone call can't be possible in 2001. 77 had seat back phones, you were wrong. Most the successful calls were seat-back phone; you know the phone too expensive to call on when it was not an emergency. You know the phones were there in 2001.

(3) the passengers who thought they were using cell phones must have been mistaken, they obviously were using satellite phones;
Not the passengers, the people who got the calls have no idea what phone the passengers were using. Not the Passengers.

(4) … and so forth, as more reasons come up to question if these passengers were actually on the planes, or these were the planes we’ve been told they were, or if this might instead be a black operation;
Wrong; the flight manifest are real, not fake. Ask some the families who lost the people on the planes. All but one on 77 were identified with DNA, it was supervised by the USN. You calling the USN in on murder?

(5) but, we have proof the passengers were on the planes, because the authorities have told us their DNA identifies these particular passengers as having been on the plane that crashed into WTC 2, of which say the authorities, there has never been any question it was UA175, to the point where a positive identification of the specific aircraft is not necessary.
The authorities? You worked for NASA, and now you are implying the military, the FAA, NORAD, me (I was on active duty on 911), firemen, NIST, are all complicit in murder?

Was NASA in on the inside job? When will you support your claims with evidence? ELT? Have you checked the FARs?
 
Mr. Deets,

Part of this issue pertains to who has the burden of proof. If a flutter engineer cited Flt 175 as evidence an airplane can fly 100 knots over its dive speed, and I were a senior manager higher up in the chain, I would send this engineer back for more background information. I would ask for any precedents where such a thing had happened previously. I would ask for an engineering analysis, in this case involving predicted flutter modes as a function of equivalent airspeed or Mach no. offering some explanation.

In this post, I'll address only the question of "was this plane Flight 175?"

I am not an aerodynamicist. I am a mechanical engineer & a low time (~400 hours) pilot.

As I understand flutter, its causes & remedies, there are three alternative strategies for dealing with it.

1. Redesign some aspect of the airframe such that the aerodynamic forces don't develop in the first place.

2a. [Viable brute-force approach] Beef up the affected surfaces such that they can resist the oscillating driving aerodynamic forces that cause the flutter in the first place.

2b. [Unviable brute-force approach. Included for completeness.] Beef up the affected surface, but all from under the skin such that no modifications are visible from external examination of the plane.

3. If the flutter is due to some feedback in the control system, change its frequency response to stabilize the control system's response at the problematic frequencies.

In the case of Flight 175, we can eliminate option #1 & 2a immediately. By all inspection of the size & shape of all parts of that airplane & its control surfaces in the video, it is, unquestionably, a 767-222. Just like Flight 175. Given resolution limits of the videos, the probability that it was externally modified is < 1 in 1000.

Similarly, I believe options 2b & 3 to be untenable. The scale of any development program to achieve either requires a large, highly skilled aerodynamics engineering staff, a huge project & enormous funding. All begging for discovery during or after the event.

Yet, any aerodynamics professional would immediately identify this incredibly dangerous, massive, expensive, certain-to-be-discovered project as rendered utterly unnecessary by the simple act of keeping the plane's airspeed within acceptable limits.

Any scenario for a modified 767 requires this large group of oxymoronic "incredibly competent / brain-dead stupid" evil geniuses. And is therefore dismissed as the stuff of very poor fiction. With a probability of < 1 in 1,000,000. (Essentially zero. Lost in the noise level of the other probabilities.)

There is no viable scenario, that I can see, that this was a modified 767-222. And so I am left with the probability that this was a stock, unmodified 767 as > 999 out of 1000.

I invite you to show any weakness in this argument and to produce any reasonable alternative.

It seems highly likely (>90%) that the people who committed this act would have (correctly) concluded that any domestic passenger jet would serve their purposes. Domestic route planes were chosen to eliminate frequent, risky customs clearances if their surveillance flights had been international.

Given this, Flight 175 was as likely a choice as any domestic passenger jet flying out of their chosen cities that morning.

Given that it was a stock 767, given all the radar tracking data & phone conversations from the plane, given the absence of the plane & passengers, given the complete lack of any viable alternative, the probability that this was NOT Flight 175 is indistinguishable from zero.
___

The next steps are so short, we might as well take them now.

Controllability:

It is patently obvious from the video that the plane that hit the tower WAS controllable at its terminal speed. The plane began drifting to the right of the building and to compensate, the pilot rolled left, and pulled back on the yoke. Thereby successfully hitting his target.

Controllability is thereby proven to a certainty.
___

Speed of the plane:

Several independent groups of analysts examined the many videos & photographs of the plane's approach to the south tower.

They came up with different, mostly overlapping, speeds (with error bounds). But like all engineering analyses, poor estimates or assumptions in early reports are improved & corrected over time. And a consensus of the best conclusion & error is achieved in the engineering / science community.

The probability that the velocity of whatever plane hit the tower is wrong (within the stated error bounds) is miniscule. Less than 1 in 1000.

The fact that one 767 successfully flew this fast does not mean that any one of them can, of course. But that isn't what we are looking to prove or disprove. We are looking for the probability that it was a 767 that managed to hit that tower on that day.

Combining these two probabilities, we now have a demonstration that the probability that at least one stock 767 did fly this fast, controllably, is very high. By these calculations, around 999,999 out of 1,000,000.

And that probability is not altered in the slightest by limiting the plane to Flight 175.

The inverse probability, that the videos & photos of that day did NOT show Flight 175 flying into the side of that building, at the speeds calculated by several independent groups, while maintaining controllability, is estimated to be around 1 in 1,000,000.
___

All of the above has not leveraged the previous experience of other commercial jets that also exceeded their performance envelopes. Some did so by larger margins than Flight 175. With none of them suffering catastrophic break up in flight (with the exception of the irrelevant-to-this-discussion thrust reverser deployment).

This data only serves to strengthen the case for the plane being Flight 175.
___

In making your case, your offerings are paltry at best.

The single counter argument for mid-air break up that you've offered is the questionable & self-serving Egyptian government's suggestion that "perhaps an elevator broke off on Flight 990."

And you've brought your personal doubts.

And you've brought your dissatisfaction with the amount & timeliness with which the FBI has released information to the public.

And you've brought your estimates of the probabilities (1 in 1000 that it was a 767 flown by a low time pilot). Which, as far as I can see, is based on no data whatsoever.

If I were the senior person making judgments in an engineering review board, and you brought your case, and a competent engineer brought the opposite case, then I can assure you that the verdict would be swift.

And it would not go in your favor.
 
Question: Does the Airfone data include anything to locate the position of the plane that originated the call?

I'm afraid I don't know. As Mike W noted, the records provided by GTE appear to have simply been lifted from a spreadsheet and pasted without any regard to formatting. So I have no idea if any of the data there is positional or not.

If the airfone system worked anything like a cellular phone system, then a tower or sets of towers somewhere would have to have received the transmissions from the jets in order to forward them along the terrestrial phone system. But whether that sort of record was even kept in the first place, let alone preserved until now, is anybody's guess.

Sorry; I wish I had a better answer for you.
 

Question: Does the Airfone data include anything to locate the position of the plane that originated the call?


As far as triangulating the origin of the call, I could be entirely wrong on this, but seriously I doubt it.

Most position location systems need at least 3 receivers to accurately locate a signal in 3 dimensions. (GPS uses 3, plus a fourth for error check, IIRC.) And GPS has been designed, and constantly corrected, to incredibly tight specs to report positions in the first place.

Meaning that they have to exchange pulsed signals. And they're just not intended to do that. So why would any company add that feature. The plane's navigation system does that for you.

If you had a record of which tower received the signal, you'd certainly be able figure out which one they were nearest, which would be some large circular area.

But you might get lucky and have a signal switch from one tower to the next mid call, that would confirm the plane at some approximately equidistant intermediate point. Most likely with the longer calls.

I think that the best that you could say would be that the pattern was consistent with a particular flights. But it's not likely (in my guesstimation) that you could pin-point the plane.

Now, if the system were to take a digital signal from the plane's GPS & encode it into the call, say for predicting the next tower jump, well, that'd be a horse of a different color.

Maybe someone with specific telecom background should weigh in with something more than guesses.

tom
 
Any scenario for a modified 767 requires this large group of oxymoronic "incredibly competent / brain-dead stupid" evil geniuses. And is therefore dismissed as the stuff of very poor fiction. With a probability of < 1 in 1,000,000. (Essentially zero. Lost in the noise level of the other probabilities.)

Re: Flutter

1. I do not include modification (as in beefing up structure) as something with a reasonable possibility that would have been done.

2. I do include as a possibility a stock 767 instrumented for flight flutter testing. Then an envelope expansion flight test flown to determine if it could fly safely at speeds well beyond the dive speed, including the speed we measure from the videos. (However, I don’t call this a standard 767, because the speed that can be counted on for the project would have been carefully determined in advance.)

Re: Modifications not visible externally

There are a number of modifications that could have been made to make it more controllable for the specific task of striking the tower. This includes guidance information, homing beacons, electronic devices either onboard or remote.

There is no viable scenario, that I can see, that this was a modified 767-222. And so I am left with the probability that this was a stock, unmodified 767 as > 999 out of 1000.
These above are viable scenarios that I listed, and I place in the category of “modified 767-222.”

It seems highly likely (>90%) that the people who committed this act would have (correctly) concluded that any domestic passenger jet would serve their purposes. Domestic route planes were chosen to eliminate frequent, risky customs clearances if their surveillance flights had been international.

At this point, I would disagree. I would think they would use a particular passenger jet, one that may have been out of service the previous nine months (and if so, likely the one they had been working with.)

Quote from UPDATE: U.S. BTS FOIA Records For 9/11 Planes Differ From BTS Online Database by Aidan Monaghan (URL below)

“According to a Freedom of Information Act reply from the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), the last known pre-9/11 flights for three of the four aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 took place in December, 2000, nine months before the attacks…”

http://911blogger.com/news/2009-06-...records-911-planes-differ-bts-online-database
 
dadeets said:
Quote from UPDATE: U.S. BTS FOIA Records For 9/11 Planes Differ From BTS Online Database by Aidan Monaghan (URL below)

“According to a Freedom of Information Act reply from the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), the last known pre-9/11 flights for three of the four aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 took place in December, 2000, nine months before the attacks…”

http://911blogger.com/news/2009-06-2...nline-database
Mr. Deets,

Firstly, a reasonable person might ask - "Given that these flights were published, regular flights; I wonder why their appearance on a list ends in December of a given year?" A reasonable person might answer "it's probably a list that is compiled annually."

Moreover, you continue to employ arguments that are easily refuted, and have been for years. You employ confirmation bias to see the facts that confirm your theory, and ignore obvious information that would disprove it. I don't understand why you haven't researched this stuff for yourself? Why not take a handful of your facts and copy / paste them into the JREF search engine? Or this link?

From this thread.

MikeW said:
Go to the BTS inquiry page.

Check "All statistics".

Flight 175 regularly flew out of San Francisco, so choose that as the Origin Airport.

Choose United Airlines as the airline.

Check September for the month.

Check All Days to see information for all of September.

Check 2001 for the year.

Click Submit. And wait (that's a big query).

When it comes back, use your browser to search for Flight 175's tail number, N612UA. And look! It flew out of SF on the 1st, the 5th, the 7th, and the 10th, and (surprise surprise) there are no further flights.

Mystery Solved. :mysteryma
 
[delurk]

Quote from UPDATE: U.S. BTS FOIA Records For 9/11 Planes Differ From BTS Online Database by Aidan Monaghan (URL below)

“According to a Freedom of Information Act reply from the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), the last known pre-9/11 flights for three of the four aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 took place in December, 2000, nine months before the attacks…”

http://911blogger.com/news/2009-06-...records-911-planes-differ-bts-online-database




I really don't understand this. BTS shows all four aircraft having flown on Sept 10, 2001. I've been over this before with a number of truthers and there is nothing wrong, or unusual about the data. Am I to understand that someone filed an FOIA to the BTS for data which would indicate that the aircraft in question didn't fly for 9 months prior? And the BTS provided it? Because if that's the case, I'm just not seeing it from your link above.

From the way I read the FOIA, the BTS wasn't exactly sure what the filers wanted to know. They provided tabular data which matched the BTS site info and the filers replied that "the agency misunderstood their request" and then sent additional data.

In any case, all of this sillyness is easily debunked by airliners.net.

Photo of N334AA(AA11) taking off from IAD two months before 9/11.
Photo of N644AA(AA77) taking off from BOS one month before 9/11.
Photo of N612UA(UA175) approaching LAX one month before 9/11.
Photo of N591UA(UA93) approaching EWR 3 days before 9/11.

Mr. Deets, you would do well do vet your sources. 9/11 Blogger? Really?

[/delurk]
 
Upon closer inspection, it appears that the BTS sent last flights of the aircraft in question for the year 2000, instead of 2001. The flight dates are all December 30 and 31st, 2000. Did this not not occur to 9/11 Blogger, the FOIA filer, or any one of the few dozen commenters of that blog post? I'm of the mind that they did notice the error but were far more concerned about making a nice "tr00thy" headline.

Nothing more to see here. What else do ya got Mr. Deets?
 
... There are a number of modifications that could have been made to make it more controllable for the specific task of striking the tower. This includes guidance information, homing beacons, electronic devices either onboard or remote. ...
Please list the modification that would do this.

Guidance information? What is this nonsense? Details please.

Homing beacons? Please explain how the homing beacon was placed and how the plane used it. This will be good.

Electronic devices on board? Please explain in detail.

Remote? Explain in detail

Pilots have have access to the plane, all the spaces, and know the equipment. Anything not stock is ground for grounding the jet; even a broken overhead storage door failure will ground the jet. Now you are going to add nonsensical modifications because you don't think pilots can hit a building. 4 pilots, flew the jet, they were terrorists. 4 real pilots killed on 911 took stock planes, and these 4 pilots and their first officers were killed. They would not fly a modified plane; so your theory is flawed due to reality.

This next part is nonsense and a lie.
...
There are a number of modifications that could have been made to make it more controllable for the specific task of striking the tower. This includes guidance information, homing beacons, electronic devices either onboard or remote. ...


At this point, I would disagree. I would think they would use a particular passenger jet, one that may have been out of service the previous nine months (and if so, likely the one they had been working with.)

.... “According to a Freedom of Information Act reply from the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), the last known pre-9/11 flights for three of the four aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 took place in December, 2000, nine months before the attacks…”

[URL="http://911blogger.com/news/2009-06-22/update-us-bts-foia-records-911-planes-differ-bts-online-database"]http://911blogger.com/news/2009-06-22/update-us-bts-foia-records-911-planes-differ-bts-online-database[/URL]
That is a lie.
The FDR from 77 and 93 prove this is nonsense a lie made up to fool the gullible. Are their any 911 truth false claims you don't like?

You need to retract the ELT false information also; no automatic ELTs on 911 flights. Retract the statement please; Someone in NASA should be able to figure out the ELT scan was an idiotic fraud.
 
Re: Flutter

1. I do not include modification (as in beefing up structure) as something with a reasonable possibility that would have been done.

2. I do include as a possibility a stock 767 instrumented for flight flutter testing. Then an envelope expansion flight test flown to determine if it could fly safely at speeds well beyond the dive speed, including the speed we measure from the videos. (However, I don’t call this a standard 767, because the speed that can be counted on for the project would have been carefully determined in advance.)

Re: Modifications not visible externally

There are a number of modifications that could have been made to make it more controllable for the specific task of striking the tower. This includes guidance information, homing beacons, electronic devices either onboard or remote.


These above are viable scenarios that I listed, and I place in the category of “modified 767-222.”



At this point, I would disagree. I would think they would use a particular passenger jet, one that may have been out of service the previous nine months (and if so, likely the one they had been working with.)

Quote from UPDATE: U.S. BTS FOIA Records For 9/11 Planes Differ From BTS Online Database by Aidan Monaghan (URL below)

“According to a Freedom of Information Act reply from the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), the last known pre-9/11 flights for three of the four aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 took place in December, 2000, nine months before the attacks…”

http://911blogger.com/news/2009-06-...records-911-planes-differ-bts-online-database


You ignored my point entirely.

My point was that anyone with the knowledge or resources to even start down this path, a highly treacherous path fraught with danger of exposure, would have decided to cancel the project entirely and simply fly the jet slower.

Can you address this point, please.
 
...
At this point, I would disagree. I would think they would use a particular passenger jet, one that may have been out of service the previous nine months (and if so, likely the one they had been working with.)

Quote from UPDATE: U.S. BTS FOIA Records For 9/11 Planes Differ From BTS Online Database by Aidan Monaghan (URL below)

“According to a Freedom of Information Act reply from the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), the last known pre-9/11 flights for three of the four aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 took place in December, 2000, nine months before the attacks…”

http://911blogger.com/news/2009-06-...records-911-planes-differ-bts-online-database

This is made up nonsense. Here is an example how to debunk the big false information posters in 911 truth.

This is a link to a photo taken in Sweden, August 18, 2001, it is the airframe what Flight 11 was; N334AA. The visit to Sweden was a real flight with passengers of the airframe, N334AA.

It appears you just discovered the Internet and believe the false information spread by people with really dumb 911 conspiracy theories.

This is cool, people all over the world have the hobby of photographing and tracking planes. Aidan Monaghan is debunked by aircraft watcher hobbyist; took me about 1 minute to DEBUNK this one!

Sweden, August 18, 2001, debunks your post.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Amer...0188142/&sid=2328975960908be4e56d0f77084917f9

OOPS, Chicago - O'Hare International (ORD / KORD) USA - Illinois, July 2001; debunked twice.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Amer...1502300/&sid=607d6bc36d67da5b01f5603c6801e3f6

Oops, debunked three times... Boston - General Edward Lawrence Logan International (BOS / KBOS), USA - Massachusetts, June 2001
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Amer...0196148/&sid=607d6bc36d67da5b01f5603c6801e3f6

Debunked at New York - John F. Kennedy International (Idlewild) (JFK / KJFK), USA - New York, June 2001
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Amer...0188139/&sid=607d6bc36d67da5b01f5603c6801e3f6

San Jose - Norman Y. Mineta International (Municipal) (SJC / KSJC), USA - California, July 21, 2001
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Amer...0188138/&sid=607d6bc36d67da5b01f5603c6801e3f6


What about flight 175, August 2001,
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unit...0188174/&sid=941edb3e363b80b18b21683ca60b396c
January 30, 2001,
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unit...0188134/&sid=941edb3e363b80b18b21683ca60b396c
April 2001.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unit...0168079/&sid=941edb3e363b80b18b21683ca60b396c

Simple research with real evidence beats made up nonsense at 911Blogger.com; 911Blogger.com is not a valid source for information, it is usually hearsay and fantasy made up and used as "evidence" to support nonsense about 911.
 
Re: Flutter

1. I do not include modification (as in beefing up structure) as something with a reasonable possibility that would have been done.

This is not a possibility. If it were done, it would have been visible.

2. I do include as a possibility a stock 767 instrumented for flight flutter testing. Then an envelope expansion flight test flown to determine if it could fly safely at speeds well beyond the dive speed, including the speed we measure from the videos. (However, I don’t call this a standard 767, because the speed that can be counted on for the project would have been carefully determined in advance.)

No, this is not a possibility.

A "stock 767 instrumented for flight flutter testing" is still a "stock 767" as far as the air molecules & aluminum molecules are concerned. Gathering data does not change flight performance. An instrumented 767 flies exactly like an uninstrumented 767.

Changing the airframe or the control system changes performance.

Re: Modifications not visible externally

There are a number of modifications that could have been made to make it more controllable for the specific task of striking the tower. This includes guidance information, homing beacons, electronic devices either onboard or remote.

This is word salad.

"Guidance information" is not a mod to the plane. Neither are "homing beacons", or "remote electronic devices"


These above are viable scenarios that I listed, and I place in the category of “modified 767-222.”

Anyone who would run such a program is a moron. There is no need to run this program. Fly the plane slower!!

Morons cannot successfully push a modern jet beyond the limits of its flight envelope.

The amateurs who hijacked the plane flew it that fast because they didn't know the danger of flying that fast. They simply "floored it" to hit the tower as hard as possible.

At this point, I would disagree. I would think they would use a particular passenger jet, one that may have been out of service the previous nine months (and if so, likely the one they had been working with.)

Utter nonsense.
Nobody was modifying any 767 to it to fly at 510 mph into the towers.
They would have used a standard 767 and flown it at 410 mph into the towers.

Your research skills are atrocious.
None of these planes were out of service for 9 month. If you bothered to read your own reference, you'd have found that out.
 
Re: Flutter

1. I do not include modification (as in beefing up structure) as something with a reasonable possibility that would have been done.

2. I do include as a possibility a stock 767 instrumented for flight flutter testing. Then an envelope expansion flight test flown to determine if it could fly safely at speeds well beyond the dive speed, including the speed we measure from the videos. (However, I don’t call this a standard 767, because the speed that can be counted on for the project would have been carefully determined in advance.)

Re: Modifications not visible externally

There are a number of modifications that could have been made to make it more controllable for the specific task of striking the tower. This includes guidance information, homing beacons, electronic devices either onboard or remote.


These above are viable scenarios that I listed, and I place in the category of “modified 767-222.”



At this point, I would disagree. I would think they would use a particular passenger jet, one that may have been out of service the previous nine months (and if so, likely the one they had been working with.)

Quote from UPDATE: U.S. BTS FOIA Records For 9/11 Planes Differ From BTS Online Database by Aidan Monaghan (URL below)

“According to a Freedom of Information Act reply from the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), the last known pre-9/11 flights for three of the four aircraft involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 took place in December, 2000, nine months before the attacks…”

http://911blogger.com/news/2009-06-...records-911-planes-differ-bts-online-database

That sounds like good argumentation to me.

I look forward to hearing a succinct response.

MM
 
Re: Modifications not visible externally

There are a number of modifications that could have been made to make it more controllable for the specific task of striking the tower. This includes guidance information, homing beacons, electronic devices either onboard or remote.


These above are viable scenarios that I listed, and I place in the category of “modified 767-222.”

So now that it's become evident that all of the airplanes were not out of service for a significant period before 9/11, the whole notion of reinforced robo-jets becomes kinda silly, doesn't it? Isn't hijackings a much simpler explanation?

I won't get into the whole remote control thing again. R.Mackey, beachnut, tfk, myself, among others have addressed it here:

Guided Planes: Fact or Fiction?

Hijacking history in the US and "Home Run" remote control = hijacking impossible.

[Split]Drone planes - split from: Failure mode in WTC towers.


If there is anything we haven't addressed or if you disagree with the points raised, I'd like to know your specific objections.
 
Utter nonsense.
Nobody was modifying any 767 to it to fly at 510 mph into the towers.
They would have used a standard 767 and flown it at 410 mph into the towers.

Well, I must say, this is a new experience for me. In all my years involved in flight safety reviews, I’ve never seen such “throwing conservatism out the window” as I’m seeing in these JREFers’ responses.

In this particular item, I can see very well the perpetrators could have been looking for a way to make it appear to be on the fringe, on the borderline between the possible and the impossible.

Now, a conservative approach treats this as a legitimate possibility. The way I do that is to take it into account when I pick a conditional probability number for this part of my joint probability estimate.
 
Well, I must say, this is a new experience for me. In all my years involved in flight safety reviews, I’ve never seen such “throwing conservatism out the window” as I’m seeing in these JREFers’ responses.

In this particular item, I can see very well the perpetrators could have been looking for a way to make it appear to be on the fringe, on the borderline between the possible and the impossible.

Now, a conservative approach treats this as a legitimate possibility. The way I do that is to take it into account when I pick a conditional probability number for this part of my joint probability estimate.


Yeah, there's a name for what you are doing Deets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
 
Well, I must say, this is a new experience for me. In all my years involved in flight safety reviews, I’ve never seen such “throwing conservatism out the window” as I’m seeing in these JREFers’ responses.

Huh? I think if the hijackers had filed a flight plan in advance that would've destroyed the whole idea of the high-risk operation they carried out.
Looking for FAA approval of their maneuvers wasn't high on the list of priorities, methinks.

In this particular item, I can see very well the perpetrators could have been looking for a way to make it appear to be on the fringe, on the borderline between the possible and the impossible.

What on earth for?

The way I do that is to take it into account when I pick a conditional probability number for this part of my joint probability estimate.

Sorry, that sentence is unintelligible.
 
Well, I must say, this is a new experience for me. In all my years involved in flight safety reviews, I’ve never seen such “throwing conservatism out the window” as I’m seeing in these JREFers’ responses.

In this particular item, I can see very well the perpetrators could have been looking for a way to make it appear to be on the fringe, on the borderline between the possible and the impossible.

Now, a conservative approach treats this as a legitimate possibility. The way I do that is to take it into account when I pick a conditional probability number for this part of my joint probability estimate.

But we've seen this behavior you're displaying before countless times: Ignore the refutations that have been given and plow ahead with misapplied concepts. Probability matters little when we're talking about an event that has already been established to happen. I can cite the 1 in 800,000+ odds of a human being struck by lightning all I want, but if I'm doing that to refute a specific instance, and the poor man is laying on the ground with smoke rising from him, and we have video evidence of the strike, it doesn't matter what the odds were. The event happened. At that point, the burden is on the claimant to disprove the event. And good luck doing so without confronting the existent evidence.

------

Fact is:
  • You've already been refuted on the airfone evidence.
  • You've already been refuted on the BTS data.
  • You're not come anywhere near sufficiently addressing the electronic data, such as the radar tracks, the FDR in the case of Flight 77, etc.
  • Similarly, you've not come anywhere near sufficiently addressing the DNA evidence, choosing instead to make some vague insinuation that it's untrustworthy, without establishing why it is so.
  • We should be more disciplined about refuting your "North of Citgo" claim (thanks to Beechnut and Reheat, among others for being exceptions), but I confess, most of us are too busy laughing at the fact that you got taken in by the idea. Still, though, rebuttals already exist in this forum; feel free to find them.
  • You've been refuted on your airspeed claims.
  • You and every other truther in existance has long been answered regarding the "free fall" claims.
I said it earlier, and it's worth repeating:
To truthers wondering why we're always so dismissive of your side's claim to expertise: Read this thread. Here we have a NASA project manager, and someone who's trained in physics, math, engineering, etc. His credentials have been burnished time and time again by you conspiracy peddlers. So supposedly he's got something worth saying, right?

But when he participates, what do we actually end up with?
... and so on. So tell me, which one of those are issues that a NASA project lead and aerospace engineer brings unique insight to? I can think of only two: Jet maneuvering allegations and plane identification allegations. And in those posts, find me points he raises that weren't already raised by previous truthers and refuted in turn.

And as for the rest: Find me where he's brought anything new to the table.

My point is: What has this expert brought to the debate that hasn't already been so well refuted that it doesn't have a permanent home at 911myths, the Popular Mechanics 9/11 page, or Debunking 9/11? And if he's not bringing up items that haven't already been refuted there or in this forum, then why trumpet his credentials to begin with?
 
Mr Deets,

I have posted a question in posts 749, 795, 833, and 914 asking you what data set and experience you are basing your opinions on.

You claim that a 767 cannot behave in the matter of which it did on 9/11...but you have not provided any data that backs up your assertion.

The RADAR data and eyewitnesses completely discount what you are implying...so instead you are arguing ELT's and Phone Calls?

For some reason, I expected more...
 

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