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My Struggle

Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Wellfed said:
I think what Kramer is saying here is that there are no rules or expectations for JREF to actually live up to, we just pretend the Challenge is real. Or in simpler terms, he might say "The JREF Challenge is a 40 year old farce".

Well he might but again the facts would say he wouldn’t since Kramer knows the history of the Challenge, which you obviously don’t and would rather make wild and frenzied attacks without checking the facts.

If you did bother to check your facts before making your (to date) totally unsubstantiated allegations and what have now been exposed as lies you would have realised that it is a documented fact that several people have been tested under the Challenge agreement. At least one Member off this forum (who was/is a dowser) was tested at the JREF office and his experiences were recorded here and in “Swift” long before this section of the forum was set up. You would also have realised the fact that the money was put on the line for the BBC science documentary programme "Horizon" (I believe it is called Nova in the USA) that tested a homeopathic claim (or rather one of the claims that people were using to say there might be something in homeopathy). These are called facts and they show that your latest allegation and accusations are like all your others – fantasies.

The evidence is there that the challenge is real, that applicants apply and undergo testing, the evidence is also here that you will not allow yourself to be tested and will actively seek ways to avoid being tested in any manner.

You despite many requests never substantiate your allegations and accusations against the JREF or KRAMER.

Perhaps if you spent some of the time you do in making allegations in producing the evidence you stated you would your frenzied and fantastical accusations might be taken seriously. However until such time all the evidence is that you are the liar and that you are the fraud.
 
Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Wellfed said:
I think what Kramer is saying here is that there are no rules or expectations for JREF to actually live up to, we just pretend the Challenge is real. Or in simpler terms, he might say "The JREF Challenge is a 40 year old farce".
No.

It simply means that when applicants state that they will table negotiations till October even after being told that such an act would result in their file being closed, the JREF has the right to do precisely what it had said it would do.

Did you think that Kramer was joking when he told you he would close the file if you threated to table negotiations?
 
Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Wellfed said:
I think what Kramer is saying here is that there are no rules or expectations for JREF to actually live up to, we just pretend the Challenge is real. Or in simpler terms, he might say "The JREF Challenge is a 40 year old farce".

You are now officially trolling.
 
from the beginning...

"Did you think that Kramer was joking" asks VIKRAM.


From day one, Wellfed has assumed this Challenge is a farce, and his ongoing goal has been to frustrate JREF, embarrass JREF, and do whatever he can to show "the record" of JREF culpability in failing to test him.

In a new thread about Michael Anda (Golden Sound Queries) we saw this quote:
This is in fact my goal and I am researching if this is, in fact, my right under the agreement signed between JREF and myself.

I asked (and was ignored) --- "How are you researching it? Do you have an attorney looking at it? ..."

Wellfed needs to answer that question, IMO.
Would someone who is not being ignored by this non-applicant please ask him what he means by the statement that he is "researching it"

KRAMER subsequently made several posts there, the most glaring rebuttal being:

As we all know that neither a protocol nor a test date/location were determined, it should be obvious that Randi neither signed nor returned anything to Mr. Anda.

Enough tomfoolery for one year.


For sure. See ya.
 
Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Vikram said:
...

Did you think that Kramer was joking when he told you he would close the file if you threated to table negotiations?

No, I think he was maneuvering himself into position to close the file. He had also been issued a warning, that being, if JREF didn't start negotiating in good faith I was going to table the negotiations until October 1. His response was to fabricate outright lies, documented in the upper half of page 20 of the Audio Critic thread. Maybe this was done pathologically, I don't know, but in any event he had the perfect out since he presumably knew no one at this Forum would call him on the carpet for his nefarious behavior.

Without an honest negotiator, the JREF Challenge is simply a farce. I don't doubt that the money is present to back up the Challenge, but I do know from personal experience that JREF doesn't have the integrity to arrive at a fair test, at least in the case of the GSIC. Perhaps the Challenge is real for the paranormal claims they receive.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Wellfed said:
Without an honest negotiator, the JREF Challenge is simply a farce. I don't doubt that the money is present to back up the Challenge, but I do know from personal experience that JREF doesn't have the integrity to arrive at a fair test, at least in the case of the GSIC. Perhaps the Challenge is real for the paranormal claims they receive.
Hopefully you will stick around while the GSIC IS tested as per LostAngeles' application.

The JREF does have the integrity to arrive at a fair test. Even in the case of the GSIC. As LA's application will hopefully soon prove.

Perhaps they simply don't want to test YOU because they think you're an alien or something and they, in their supreme nefariousness, don't want to give their million bucks to someone not of the human race. Oooooo... spooky...
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Wellfed said:
No, I think he was maneuvering himself into position to close the file. He had also been issued a warning, that being, if JREF didn't start negotiating in good faith I was going to table the negotiations until October 1. His response was to fabricate outright lies, documented in the upper half of page 20 of the Audio Critic thread. Maybe this was done pathologically, I don't know, but in any event he had the perfect out since he presumably knew no one at this Forum would call him on the carpet for his nefarious behavior.

Without an honest negotiator, the JREF Challenge is simply a farce. I don't doubt that the money is present to back up the Challenge, but I do know from personal experience that JREF doesn't have the integrity to arrive at a fair test, at least in the case of the GSIC. Perhaps the Challenge is real for the paranormal claims they receive.

We have a number of attorney's on this forum. Is there some point where these baseless public accusations and derogatory remarks become legally actionable items? Clearly, Mr. Anda is performing an ongoing public attack (albeit unsuccessfully) on JREF and Kramer's credibility and reputation.

Just wondering. :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Vikram said:
Hopefully you will stick around while the GSIC IS tested as per LostAngeles' application.

The JREF does have the integrity to arrive at a fair test. Even in the case of the GSIC. As LA's application will hopefully soon prove.

Perhaps they simply don't want to test YOU because they think you're an alien or something and they, in their supreme nefariousness, don't want to give their million bucks to someone not of the human race. Oooooo... spooky...

Perhaps they were concerned that a legitimate claim had a chance of being successful. Why else would JREF choose to lie and deceive? Have they lied in the past with other claims?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Wellfed said:
Perhaps they were concerned that a legitimate claim had a chance of being successful.
No, because there was no chance of you succeeding, simply because (as we all know) the GSIC chip does nothing.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

jmercer said:
We have a number of attorney's on this forum. Is there some point where these baseless public accusations and derogatory remarks become legally actionable items? Clearly, Mr. Anda is performing an ongoing public attack (albeit unsuccessfully) on JREF and Kramer's credibility and reputation.

Just wondering. :)

How do you figure the accusations baseless? If they were baseless don't you think JREF would choose to refute them with specifics? I have accused Kramer of outright lies and pointed to a few instances. Kramer hasn't even refuted the fact that he lied as best I can tell.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Powa said:
No, because there was no chance of you succeeding, simply because (as we all know) the GSIC chip does nothing.

If JREF believes that, why lie about an applicant? Simply for the fun of it? Boredom? Why lie?
 
Please read this.

It seems at this point that everyone is so close to this situation, that it has disintigrated into a 'He said, she said' type of argument that is going absolutely nowhere.

Let me give a simplified version of this entire situation from an outsider's perspective (And before it's suggested, yes, I have read all of the threads):

The problem here is that both Kramer and Mr. Anda had certain requirements that they would not budge on. The reason for the breakdown in protocol negotiations is that these requirements conflict.

Mr. Anda is absolutely determined to have a perfect listening environment, free from distractions, and closest to the listening environment he normally has at home. If he does not have a perfect, stress-free listening environment, he does not feel that he can be tested.

Kramer is absolutely determined to make sure no cheating can occur, that the test is kept simple, and that possible excuses for failure are covered. If these requirements are not met, he does not feel that Mr. Anda should be tested.

But there are certain points in the protocol that cannot possible satisfy both parties. Kramer insists that there must be observers in the room, to ensure that cheating is not possible. Mr. Anda feels that observers will be a distraction and will not lead to a suitable listening environment. Neither side can possibly give in on an issue such as this, because then they don't feel that a fair test would be performed.

Because neither side will give in, both Kramer and Mr. Anda get frustrated over the negotiations. Mr. Anda says he will table the negotiations until October. Kramer says that he will close his file if he tables the negotiations. Mr. Anda tables the negoations, so Kramer closes the file.

Now it's gotten to the point that members are saying that Mr. Anda is a liar and never wanted to be tested. I don't believe this is true. I truly believe that Mr. Anda wanted to be tested, and still does. Why wouldn't he? He believes GSIC has an effect.
Mr. Anda is now saying that Kramer is a liar and the JREF is a farce. I don't believe this is true. I truly believe that Kramer and JREF wanted Mr. Anda to be tested. Why wouldn't they? They don't believe that the GSIC has an effect.

Unfortunately it seems that everyone is so frustrated over the situation that baseless accusations are being made. On both sides. It's unfortunately that all parties involved can't see this and end on good terms. I believe that if both parties go into protocol negotiations next year with this in mind, they will end up actually coming up with a protocol that is agreed to, and a test can actually be performed. IMHO.

-Ripley 29
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Wellfed said:
If JREF believes that, why lie about an applicant? Simply for the fun of it? Boredom? Why lie?
If Benjamin Franklin had it right...

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Then at this point, we can officially consider Wellfed the Mayor of Crazytown
 
Ripley: if Wellfed wanted to be tested, he'd have tested himself by now.

He doesn't want to be tested, either by himself or others, because the test would reveal the GSIC a fake. He seems quite unable to back away from the mess he's created.

He can't back out without losing face, he can't be tested without losing face, so he attacks the JREF.
 
Re: Please read this.

Ripley Twenty-Nine said:
It seems at this point that everyone is so close to this situation, that it has disintigrated into a 'He said, she said' type of argument that is going absolutely nowhere.

Let me give a simplified version of this entire situation from an outsider's perspective (And before it's suggested, yes, I have read all of the threads):

The problem here is that both Kramer and Mr. Anda had certain requirements that they would not budge on. The reason for the breakdown in protocol negotiations is that these requirements conflict.

Mr. Anda is absolutely determined to have a perfect listening environment, free from distractions, and closest to the listening environment he normally has at home. If he does not have a perfect, stress-free listening environment, he does not feel that he can be tested.

Kramer is absolutely determined to make sure no cheating can occur, that the test is kept simple, and that possible excuses for failure are covered. If these requirements are not met, he does not feel that Mr. Anda should be tested.

But there are certain points in the protocol that cannot possible satisfy both parties. Kramer insists that there must be observers in the room, to ensure that cheating is not possible. Mr. Anda feels that observers will be a distraction and will not lead to a suitable listening environment. Neither side can possibly give in on an issue such as this, because then they don't feel that a fair test would be performed.

Because neither side will give in, both Kramer and Mr. Anda get frustrated over the negotiations. Mr. Anda says he will table the negotiations until October. Kramer says that he will close his file if he tables the negotiations. Mr. Anda tables the negoations, so Kramer closes the file.

Now it's gotten to the point that members are saying that Mr. Anda is a liar and never wanted to be tested. I don't believe this is true. I truly believe that Mr. Anda wanted to be tested, and still does. Why wouldn't he? He believes GSIC has an effect.
Mr. Anda is now saying that Kramer is a liar and the JREF is a farce. I don't believe this is true. I truly believe that Kramer and JREF wanted Mr. Anda to be tested. Why wouldn't they? They don't believe that the GSIC has an effect.

Unfortunately it seems that everyone is so frustrated over the situation that baseless accusations are being made. On both sides. It's unfortunately that all parties involved can't see this and end on good terms. I believe that if both parties go into protocol negotiations next year with this in mind, they will end up actually coming up with a protocol that is agreed to, and a test can actually be performed. IMHO.

-Ripley 29

I truly appreciate the spirit of your post, but find that it has some inaccuracies. Thank you for taking the time to read the record and comment.

I agreed to having observers present in my listening area with the stipulation that they not be in my line of sight. I stated on more than one occasion that I didn't expect to get a perfect environment. I was trying to eliminate every single escape portal. I believe every last one could have been eliminated with true negotiation.

My accusations of JREF lies and deceits are not baseless. Kramer's outright lies are documented on the top half of page 20 in the Audio Critic thread. Deceptive JREF spin can be seen throughout many, if not all, of the threads. There is also the matter of Kramer posting a selective portion of my email correspondence in a deceitful manner.

The big questions I have is

"If the JREF believes debunking the GSIC as ineffectual is such a slam dunk, why lie?"

Why lie about a Challenge applicant period? What does lying have to do with getting to the truth? Lies are an attempt to obfuscate the truth. Kramer has stated that the JREF's objective is to establish truth. How does lying establish truth? Why lie?
 
Re: Please read this.

Ripley Twenty-Nine said:
The problem here is that both Kramer and Mr. Anda had certain requirements that they would not budge on. The reason for the breakdown in protocol negotiations is that these requirements conflict
I completely agree with your depiction of the events that have preceded this conversation.

However, Kramer's requirements must be met, since he represents the interests of the JREF and it's their challenge. The requirement that there be no cheating must be satisfied for the JREF test to perform it's function. Unfortunately, as may have happened in this case, this essential ingredient of the test can interfere with the testee's comfort level. And you know what? That's tough.

In designing any kind of experiment, the protocol is always give and take, and you always have systematic effects present no matter how hard you try. Mr. Anda wants an experiment with no systematics, and he can't have one. There ain't no such animal.

As I've said before, if there is really an effect, it should be easy to prove under test conditions, even if the testee is not completely comfortable. Putting my scientist hat on, I'd say test several people under the same conditions at different locations. Even if they're all not 100% comfortable, a real effect would show up.
 
edthedoc said:
Ripley: if Wellfed wanted to be tested, he'd have tested himself by now.

He doesn't want to be tested, either by himself or others, because the test would reveal the GSIC a fake. He seems quite unable to back away from the mess he's created.

He can't back out without losing face, he can't be tested without losing face, so he attacks the JREF.

So it's your belief that he thinks the GSIC is a fake? I don't think that's the case at all.

I think he's so convinced that it works, that he doesn't feel a need to take time out of his busy schedule to test it.

Mr. Anda seems like a reasonable person. I hope that I'm not naive in thinking that if he had actually done a DBT, failed, and realized that the GSIC was a fake, that he would be man enough to admit that instead of resorting to obfuscation.

-Ripley 29
 
edthedoc said:
Ripley: if Wellfed wanted to be tested, he'd have tested himself by now.

He doesn't want to be tested, either by himself or others, because the test would reveal the GSIC a fake. He seems quite unable to back away from the mess he's created.

He can't back out without losing face, he can't be tested without losing face, so he attacks the JREF.

I have tested myself. I didn't even need to do that to know that the GSIC is effective. I put my application on hold because of JREF misdeeds, they are the party that chose to back out. They are the party that chose to lie over negotiations. I am the party that wants to be tested.

Were you a professional psychologist your assessment would still be wrong.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regarding the Harping on the 12 Rules

Wellfed said:
How do you figure the accusations baseless? If they were baseless don't you think JREF would choose to refute them with specifics? I have accused Kramer of outright lies and pointed to a few instances. Kramer hasn't even refuted the fact that he lied as best I can tell.

There's no need to refute the obvious, plus your own postings of your email exchanges (plus existing forum postings between you and Kramer) said all that is needed on the topic.

My question was to the attorney's in the forum, not to you - so unless you've consulted with a lawyer and want to share his/her opinion - this is just rhetoric on your part. :)
 

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