My new Question

[Kumar]

I think this is one of the reasons why religious control of sex is so popular is that it gives a means to control one of our most fundamental urges, the urge to reproduce.

No, I think it can be due a suggestion/step towards salvation.

- Why are you so scared of sex ?

Who said? I am not scared at all. I just mentioned the effect of same in relation to sin.

- Why are you so obsessed with your salvation ?

Because it is said to be the true & final destination for humans. Other living beings can not achieve this final destination.

- How can you be so sure that your viewpoint is correct ? (after all there are many others)

Anyone can be wrong. I am just presenting my views like you present your views & you mostly anticipate that I am wrong.

- Why do you feel that a "natural life" in your words with its shorter life span and higher infant mortality is so much more preferable ?

Natural life is not shorter in particular(of fittest) but can be can be not in average. I like this because it is a long story of million of years not a short story. Consider the logic of nature's balance & " Surrvival of the Fittest ".

 

[Correa Neto]

most or all of mass existing true religions teaches similar goal & may have similar basic principles

No they don't. Using the issue that moved this discussion off track, look at the following dietary restrictions taken from various religions (the same I pointed before).

Pig
crab
shrimp
onion
carrot
catfish
potatoes
cow

So... This leaves us with fruits and leaves? Can you honestly say you see a logic or common principles in this list?

Strengtening bonds can't be taken as an opposite to sin. Salvation(deliverance from the power and effects of sin) may the ultimate goal of humans in spritual language. Strengtening bonds can be a hindrance for this purpose.

In YOUR cultural background. On mine, strenghtening of bonds between people are among the most precious social values. [added after edit]The individual search for salvation or improvment seems selfish under my views. The community is more important than the individual in my own views. See how our backgrounds affect our opinion? See how generalizations are dangerous?[end edit]

No, I think it can be due a suggestion/step towards salvation.

Now, to be saved from what? Hell?

How can you be so sure that your viewpoint is correct ? (after all there are many others)

The ball is back to you. How can you be so sure that YOUR concepts of "sin" and "natural ways" based on YOUR cultural background are correct? Actually it seems that most of your posts are somehow related to this.

We developed medications to protect ourselves from the problems created by us not for improvement or betterment of our real & natural living. You clarified that: we are not living our natural life as "our ancestors "that lived their natural lives".

So... There were no deaths from smallpox, polio, variola, [place disease name here], etc. in these ancient mythical times of yours? When people study human remains from ancient burials they find evidence of a very painfull living. Diseases, infections by wounds, pain everywhere, not to mention short life spans. Is this your view of "natural", healthy and "right" life? Or you deny that these people had these problems? Or you deny these diseases existed back then? These problems existed before our current technology, face it. Scientists found germs and viruses that caused these diseases in ancient remains, as well as the telltale marks of seriois infections.

It is like the words of an addicted person who says alcohol,sex,durgs etc. are natural to me as I am immune to it.

I will take that you meant no ofense and its an issue due to language problems. But, in a point, you are correct. Sex is natural to me. And I see no problem with recreational use of alcohol and some drugs (actually most of them). Note that many religions use (pretty heavy) hallucinogenic substances (yes, they can be labelled as drugs if you consider marijuana a drug) during rituals. What are the differences between peyote and marijuana? Peyote is used in certain rites. Peyote and marijuana can be used for recreational purposes. The difference? Cultural background involved.

Natural life is not shorter in particular(of fittest) but can be can be not in average. I like this because it is a long story of million of years not a short story. Consider the logic of nature's balance & " Surrvival of the Fittest ".

Survival of the fittest... So who are the fittest?

- People who lived in the past, say 3000 years ago (but it could also be early 20th century aswell), no vaccines, no modern drugs, no modern medicine. Average life expectancy around 40 years, a simple cut could create a life-threatening infection, smallpoax kiled infants, polio either killed or caused severe problems, such as paralysis, myopia was areal problem, a broken limb was quite probably mean a limb that would never be the same again...

- We living in the early 21th century... Some diseases we no longer have or were erradicated (or are about ot be if our dear politicians do not screw things up) due to vaccines, average life expectancy around 60 - 65 years, surgery can terminate myopia, restore incredibly damaged (or in some cases malformed) limbs...

I say we are the fittest. Our natural way is to do it. Modern drugs, vaccines and modern medicine healing us. And why not? Improving us. Its natural for me to travel at a 9000km height at 850km/h. Its natural for our generation to have a better life than our ancestors. And our ancestors certainly would approve that. What father would not want a better living for the children?

I would not trade our current natural way for my ancestors natural way.

And yes, you can get an average lifespan for each period of mankind's existence. An no, its not a million of years long story, unless you add other species of homo to it. And yes, we also have estimates of how long they lived, based on their fossils.

 

[The Don]

I fear that Kumar may be building an argument something like:

- The world is a terrible place
- There are "bad" people who make it a terrible place (taking drugs, having sex for fun etc. etc.) and who are not pur of mind
- Being pure of mind can either prevent illness or can cure it, naturally
- Historically, survival of the fittest would dictate that "bad" people would die earlier and reproduce less
- With more "bad" people surviving (thanks to non-natural modern medicine) a greater porportion of people are bad

To reverse this parilous state fo affairs we need to:

- Revert to natural medicine
- Embrace Kumar's belief system to stop being "bad"
- Cure ourselves of our diseases
- Watch the "bad" people die out

Which is an interesting ofr of eugenics is it not ?

 

[Kumar]

Last but not least.......

Just understand the logic. Since this is too much off the topic, unlimited, sensitive & intresting subject, we will take it in other related forum at so later date.

Thanks & best wishes.