Muslims Self-Criticism

[TillEulenspiegel]

Shoot .I'll kill inocents and become Buddhist for sex...OW! Stop..Honey i wuz only kidding...jeeze gotta go t bed now <sigh> OW! I'm commin Cheebus chris............click

 

[The Fool]

Kind of hard to see a solution when the Khoran has innumerable references to killing infidels in return for sex for example; without them all becoming Buddhists, or atheists.

[/B]

If All muslims were to suddenly convert to Christianity or become Atheists would the problems in these areas of the world disappear?

Putting the blame on one version of the Abrahamic god sure saves a lot of time.

People create Interpretations of the teachings of thier gods to justify thier actions. They decide they should kill some people and they will dig out the books and interpret them to support thier actions.... I doubt if a whole pile of Islamic clerics all of a sudden looked up from the books and said "shoot....i says in here we have to all be terrorists...lets go!"

 

[a_unique_person]

If All muslims were to suddenly convert to Christianity or become Atheists would the problems in these areas of the world disappear?

Putting the blame on one version of the Abrahamic god sure saves a lot of time.

People create Interpretations of the teachings of thier gods to justify thier actions. They decide they should kill some people and they will dig out the books and interpret them to support thier actions.... I doubt if a whole pile of Islamic clerics all of a sudden looked up from the books and said "shoot....i says in here we have to all be terrorists...lets go!"

Left wing cry baby. If Islam is the problem, the solution is to kill all Muslims. Cry me a river, liberal.

 

[Elind]

If All muslims were to suddenly convert to Christianity or become Atheists would the problems in these areas of the world disappear?

Putting the blame on one version of the Abrahamic god sure saves a lot of time.

People create Interpretations of the teachings of thier gods to justify thier actions. They decide they should kill some people and they will dig out the books and interpret them to support thier actions.... I doubt if a whole pile of Islamic clerics all of a sudden looked up from the books and said "shoot....i says in here we have to all be terrorists...lets go!"

No, yes (because it's true) and yes; however you don't address the main point, which is that 99% of worldwide terrorism (as opposed to local ethnic conflict) is committed while praising Allah (not the turtle god). That's the theme of the thread.

As to the clerics; that is precisely what many of them have done, and most have, at best, failed to do more than mildly critisize.

 

[Skeptic]

If All muslims were to suddenly convert to Christianity or become Atheists would the problems in these areas of the world disappear?

Disappear, no. Become much, much, less severe--yes. For instance, it's hard for me to see how you can convince an atheist to blow himself up on a bus full of children with promises of paradise, 72 virgins, etc.

Putting the blame on one version of the Abrahamic god sure saves a lot of time.

Well, it does, when that one version of the Abrahamic god seems to be committing the lion's share of religious violence.

People create Interpretations of the teachings of thier gods to justify thier actions. They decide they should kill some people and they will dig out the books and interpret them to support thier actions....

Isn't it interesting that when it comes to criticizing jews, or the USA, or the west for its actions, "The Fool" isn't vague--he blames those he thinks are doing wrong explicitly... but when it comes to condemning what the Islamic world does wrong, namely, Jihadi terror, all of a sudden all we get is weak mumblings about "people" in general "creating interpretations of teaching".

I doubt if a whole pile of Islamic clerics all of a sudden looked up from the books and said "shoot....i says in here we have to all be terrorists...lets go!"

Actually, something pretty similar DID happen. Not all at once; but since the 18th century, the violent, terror-and jihad-supporting version of Islam known as Wahhabi Islam after the Islamic cleric who founded the movement, DID conclude, more and more, that that's PRECISELY what a good Muslim should be--a warrior in the fight against the infidel.

If you want to get an idea of the problem of Islam, imagine how Christianity would look today is it was jointly ruled by Torquemada, David Koresh, and Jim Jones--those three august religious figures.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Another interesting article...

Arabs Look Inward Over Islam, Terrorism - Mon Sep 20, 2004

BEIRUT, Lebanon - The rash of kidnappings, beheadings and explosions in Iraq, the killing of innocent children in Russia, and car bombings in Turkey and Indonesia have sparked debate among Arab intellectuals on why the majority of terror acts have been committed by Muslims acting in the name of Islam.

"Right now, Muslim youths can choose only between Osama bin Laden and semiliterate clerics," Noureddine added. "What is required is an Arab religious establishment that's civilized, educated and vigilant."

Condemnation has not only come from intellectuals, but also from some of the Muslim world's most prominent scholars. Egypt's foremost religious leader, Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, says "beheadings and (the) mutilation of bodies stand against Islam." And Lebanon's top Shiite Muslim cleric, Grand Ayatollah Sheik Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, maintains Islam doesn't sanction the killing and abduction of foreigners who are working and feel secure in Muslim countries.

However, when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, many religious scholars say suicide bombings carried out by the militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad are acceptable.

"The Palestinian resistance against Zionist terrorism is one that we demand, bless and sanction," said Abdul-Aziz al-Khayat, a Jordanian scholar and former minister of religious affairs.

But remember folks, when muslims say "zionist" it does not mean jews...

 

[CBL4]

"The Palestinian resistance against Zionist terrorism is one that we demand, bless and sanction," said Abdul-Aziz al-Khayat, a Jordanian scholar and former minister of religious affairs.

However, when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, many religious scholars say suicide bombings carried out by the militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad are acceptable.

It's bad to bomb Russian civilians but lets give rewards for bombing Israeli children.

This is the problem. They "know" that terrorism is proper against Israel but that leaves them with no logical way of condemning other terrorists. Even moderate international Muslim groups can never condemn terrorrism because they approve of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. This leaves them morally and logically bankrupt when they condemn Chechen and other terrorists.

CBL

 

[zenith-nadir]

It's bad to bomb Russian civilians but lets give rewards for bombing Israeli children.

This is the problem. They "know" that terrorism is proper against Israel but that leaves them with no logical way of condemning other terrorists. Even moderate international Muslim groups can never condemn terrorrism because they approve of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. This leaves them morally and logically bankrupt when they condemn Chechen and other terrorists.

CBL

In other words....bombing non-jews may be debated and possibly against Islam, bombing jews...er...ahhh...."zionists"... is "demanded, blessed and sanctioned". No moral duplicity here folks...

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by Mycroft
Very good, then! You must have found the answer you were looking for. That is unless I've underestimated your intelligence, you declined to answer that simple yes/no question.

Are you going to answer the question?

Well, encouraged by your success in answering the first question all by yourself, I will now refer you back to that thread to find the answer to this one.

Are you going to answer the question?

I think a careful reading should be able to tell you exactly how many Muslims I was trying to say were evolving into two-headed monsters. This is a little more tricky as my unfortunate and poorly done use of humor will work against your natural tendency towards literalism. However, I feel you are up to the task and capable of accomplishing this. Do let me know if I've overestimated your intelligence, and I'll give you a hint.

I take it you're not going to answer the question or explain what you meant by your claim about the UTG?

I won't even ask what it was about my response to the first question that you took to have any meaning on the other thread. It seems obvious that was just a brain-fart on your part and best ignored.

So you're not going to answer the question? If I was to respond in your own inimtable style that might suggest you weren't up to the task but I won't be so louche.

My fault. I equated your statement ”doesn't do yes or no”to mean doesn't like. I forgot that your sense of literalism would have you making an issue of this unimportant distinction. Let me correct my statement to say you don't always do them either.

So you're not going to answer the question or explain who the UTG are?

n line with...exactly so! You should learn to think for yourself, develop your reading comprehension skills and not always depend on others to point out the obvious for you. I have faith that no matter how dense you make yourself appear to be, you are capable of understanding the meaning behind simple sentences and paragraphs. With enough practice and a little more confidence, you might even someday be able to join the conversations at the same level as the rest of us.

So you're not going to answer the question then - or tell us who the Unidentified Tiny Group are?

Defining terms when making claims often aids understanding.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

originally posted by zenith-nadir
But remember folks, when muslims say "zionist" it does not mean jews...

Does that mean you are speaking for all muslims by any chance or just some Muslims?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Does that mean you are speaking for all muslims by any chance or just some Muslims?

I am speaking about all muslims who refer to jews as zionists so that they can sneak under the anti-semitism radar because they strategically use the term "zionist" instead of "jew".

Like when the Iranian judoka refused to face the Israeli from the "zionist regime" at the Olympics. Like how Abdul-Aziz al-Khayat in the article I quoted said Palestinian resistance against "Zionist terrorism" is one that we demand, bless and sanction. Like how Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad call Israel the "zionist entity"....

 

[The Fool]

I am speaking about all muslims who refer to jews as zionists so that they can sneak under the anti-semitism radar because they strategically use the term "zionist" instead of "jew".

Like when the Iranian judoka refused to face the Israeli from the "zionist regime" at the Olympics. Like how Abdul-Aziz al-Khayat in the article I quoted said Palestinian resistance against "Zionist terrorism" is one that we demand, bless and sanction. Like how Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad call Israel the "zionist entity"....

Is that how you sneak under the bigotry radar ZN? By strategically using the term Islamofacist instead of Muslim?

Personally, when I am talking about Muslims I use the term muslim, when I talk about Jews I use the term Jews. When I talk about Zionists I use the term Zionist....get the idea?

You must believe that all zionists are Jewish and all Jews are Zionists? Is that your problem?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Islamofacist instead of Muslim?

No zippy, when I say Islamofascist I mean Islamic extremists or fundamentalists. I don't refer to Saudi Arabia as the Islamofascist regime of Saudi Arabia or I don't refer to Egypt as the Islamofascist regime of Egypt. But when Iran forbid thier Judoka to fight an Israeli at the olympics it was because he was from the "zionist regime".

You must believe that all zionists are Jewish and all Jews are Zionists? Is that your problem?

I have no problem. Most of the Arab world refers to jews as zionists. Israel is refered to as the zionist entity. I entered "zionist entity" at Google...go look through 5 or 6 pages....you can almost feel the love...

http://www.google.ca/search?q=zionist+entity&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

[Elind]

If you want to get an idea of the problem of Islam, imagine how Christianity would look today is it was jointly ruled by Torquemada, David Koresh, and Jim Jones--those three august religious figures.

It's not how Christianity would look, but how society would look if they ruled, as the Islamists rule their societies; and you left out Robertson, Falwell, Graham (Jr.) and the Pope, to mention but a few solid Christians with more in common with Islam than they would like to admit. Oh, I forgot the Mormons.

 

[The Fool]

No zippy, when I say Islamofascist I mean Islamic extremists or fundamentalists. I don't refer to Saudi Arabia as the Islamofascist regime of Saudi Arabia or I don't refer to Egypt as the Islamofascist regime of Egypt. But when Iran forbid thier Judoka to fight an Israeli at the olympics it was because he was from the "zionist regime".

Thats what I thought you meant....yet whenever you see the word Zionist you go a little bit strange, jam on the tinfoil helmet and start coming up with all sorts of interesting conspiracy theories about what people reeeeeeeeeely mean when they use that word.

When I critisize "zionists" who do you imagine I am refering to? (use your helmet if it helps)

 

[Mycroft]

Are you going to answer the question?
Are you going to answer the question?I take it you're not going to answer the question or explain what you meant by your claim about the UTG? So you're not going to answer the question? If I was to respond in your own inimtable style that might suggest you weren't up to the task but I won't be so louche. So you're not going to answer the question or explain who the UTG are?
So you're not going to answer the question then - or tell us who the Unidentified Tiny Group are?

Defining terms when making claims often aids understanding.

Sorry E.J., referring you back to the original source material was my answer to your questions. If you truly don't understand my words, I'll be more than happy to help you along, but I think it's only reasonable for you to at least attempt to discern the answers through your own cognitive abilities.

You may have grown used to people coddling you, meeting every request of yours as though you were a baby incapable of doing for yourself, but I think in the long run they do you a disservice this way. If you are old enough to sit at a computer and converse with adults, you are old enough to re-read any statement or paragraph you don't understand, and to try to place it in the context of a larger conversation.

I went through a similar issue with my daughter several years ago. She went through a phase where she would continually ask questions where the answer was annoyingly obvious. If it was raining, she would ask if it was wet. If I turned on the stove, she would ask if it were hot, that sort of thing.

At first I answered her patiently, but as the trend grew worse I took a new approach; I would answer, ”What's your opinion?” or ”What do you think the answer is?”. Then when she answered correctly, I'd give her a high-five or say something nice. On the few occasions where she really wasn't sure, I'd invite her to think about the answer and discuss it with her. After a while, she stopped asking the really obvious questions, but she still feels comfortable asking about things that might seem silly to some people, and I think that's a good thing.

So in the spirit of love for all mankind, I'll offer you the same deal I give my own children. I won't coddle you by doing what you should be able to do for yourself, but if you tell me what you think the answers to these questions are, I'll certainly let you know if you're right, and be willing to discuss it with you if you're not.

Fair?

 

[Mycroft]

Thats what I thought you meant....yet whenever you see the word Zionist you go a little bit strange, jam on the tinfoil helmet and start coming up with all sorts of interesting conspiracy theories...

That's funny, so do you.

 

[epepke]

Thats what I thought you meant....yet whenever you see the word Zionist you go a little bit strange, jam on the tinfoil helmet and start coming up with all sorts of interesting conspiracy theories about what people reeeeeeeeeely mean when they use that word.

Context, people! We constantly see exchanges in this forum like the following:

(zenith-nadir) Moral obligations. I love that one. How about the moral obligation to admit that Haj Amin al-Husseini conspiring with Hitler to kill jews was wrong and hating jews cuz they are jews set the wrong tone for generations to come.

(AUP) If all he did was to hate Jews because they were Jews, I would agree. You have not shown that he did. My interpretation is that he was resisting the establishment of a Jewish state where his people lived. Given that that is exactly what happened, he may have been right.

AUP's response, in the context he himself chose to present it, juxtaposes "the establishment of a Jewish state" directly against "conspiring with Hitler to kill jews," many of whom, I'm sure, would rather have continued to live in Warsaw, without making anything remotely resembling a distinction between the two groups.

Zenith-Nadir didn't just pull the idea that people functionally fail to distinguish between Jews and Zionists out of a tinfoil hat and present it as a straw man; it's the basis of many threads

Now, maybe you personally wouldn't ever ignore or smooth over this distinction, and so it would be unfair to accuse you of doing it, but it's part of the climate here, and ignoring that fact is disingenuous in its own right.

 

[a_unique_person]

Context, people! We constantly see exchanges in this forum like the following:



AUP's response, in the context he himself chose to present it, juxtaposes "the establishment of a Jewish state" directly against "conspiring with Hitler to kill jews," many of whom, I'm sure, would rather have continued to live in Warsaw, without making anything remotely resembling a distinction between the two groups.

Zenith-Nadir didn't just pull the idea that people functionally fail to distinguish between Jews and Zionists out of a tinfoil hat and present it as a straw man; it's the basis of many threads

Now, maybe you personally wouldn't ever ignore or smooth over this distinction, and so it would be unfair to accuse you of doing it, but it's part of the climate here, and ignoring that fact is disingenuous in its own right.

I try, always, to make that clear distinction between Zionism and being Jewish. Many non Jews are Zionists, many Jews are not Zionist. I have no doubt at all, and have stated already, that many of the Jews of Europe would have much rather stayed where they were. I don't know how many times you want me to say it, but, for your sake, I have just said it again. There are Jews on this forum, and in 'real life', that I respect a lot, no more or less than anyone else, based on who they are as individuals, which is, I think, what one should aspire to.

I don't defend the SS recruits from Palestine, I am just saying that the Palestinians, as has been clearly demsonstrated with history, weren't on the wrong track when they deduced that the creation of Israel meant a lot of trouble and suffering was coming their way, and tried to prevent the creation of Israel in various ways, some violent. This would be the natural reaction of any country to such an event. The alliance with Hitler was in the same category of alliance that the US still forges today, an alliance of convenience, 'enemy of my enemy is my friend'.

 

[The Fool]

That's funny, so do you.

What do I do Mycroft? Quote the founding fathers of the Zionist movement saying all the things you don't like to hear?

The funny thing is that I don't even try to make conclusions based on the words, the words specifically state something that you claim is no longer applicable (the zionist goals of the ultimate size of Israel).....why its no longer applicable or what its been replaced with is something that many have tried to pry out of you without success. Don't suppose you want to have another chop at it??