Muslims: GET OVER IT

[Tony4245]

Certainly there seems a kind of mutual affinity between Christian & Muslim values. The Vatican and Muslim Nations seem all too willing to jettison press freedom so they may exist together in peace.

Well, if you look at it from the standpoint that the Vatican has a lot more "making up to do"... after all, it wasn't the Protestants that were launching Crusades back in the day.

On the other hand, I don't see Palestinians burning papal flags, either.

 

[Pidge]

And what do you have to do to win the challenge? Prove a negative....

Ali's claims are based on evidence he has drawn from Islamic texts (Qu'ran and related documents), so you do not have to prove a negative in this case.

You "merely" have to counter the evidence that underly the claims. If it can be shown that the evidence does not supports the claims, then the claims are not valid.

It's not like you have to prove that there isn't an invisible pink unicorn in my back yard.

 

[Kopji]

The group's pov that I most understand are the cartoonists. They're going "sheeeesh already": http://cagle.com/news/Muhammad/

 

[kmortis]

From your link:

HAHAHAHAHA

 

[alfaniner]

Wow, the funniest thing I've seen in weeks. Kind of outlines the ludicrousity of the whole thing.

 

[steenkh]

Yes, this collection is great! Actually much better than the original Mohammad cartoons!

 

[Kopji]

It should probably not be too surprising.

The political cartoonists can hit directly to the point because it is more than a 'freedom of the press' issue for them. At issue is violent people who want to suppress the way they express their thoughts. Nail them into neat boxes of text where they are powerless.

The Mullahs are afraid of cartoonists, artists, musicians, - anyone using this easy ability to cross traditional boundaries of written language and culture - to directly access the minds they have worked so hard and long to control.

 

[c4ts]

They have been publishing antisemetic cartoons for years, things like Arial Sharon eating babies and beating them to death with a swastika, and now they are upset over cartoons like a bomb in Mohammed's head.

 

[Elind]

They have been publishing antisemetic cartoons for years, things like Arial Sharon eating babies and beating them to death with a swastika, and now they are upset over cartoons like a bomb in Mohammed's head.

Partly, but they are also upset about any image with the label Mohammed under it. Nobody knows what he looked like of course, so presumably the same would apply to your picture. In fact, on second thought, it would probably be far more upsetting than the bomb thingy

 

[Kopji]

So. 3 weeks out. I'm like, getting a little depressed and bored over this at the same time.

No wonder the dark ages are starting to look so progressive. That stupid wall Israel is building makes perfect sense now. The Pope says we should respect all religions and their symbols. This sounds more than a little self serving.

So while we are busy respecting them they are busy planning whatever horror will be visited on us to prove they are greatly offended by Muhammed being portrayed as a terrorist. Oh, doh.

We are ominously close to a world war sparked by some stupid drawings. How can anyone say that the kind of thinking that brings us here has been beneficial? The question is not when this will all die down, but what will come next.

 

[Elind]

What I found most interesting, and depressing, was that survey of Muslim opinions in the UK.

I'm wondering if anyone will do one for the US, but I suspect it will be vastly different based on the more rational, if somewhat apologist nevertheless, response here.

What, the US teach other Muslims how to behave?

When pigs fly I suppose.

 

[Kopji]

US Muslims are probably afraid to protest too loudly, even in a peaceful manner. After all, any Muslim who has relatives outside the country probably has their phones tapped. Muslim silence is more of a dark commentary on our political atmosphere than an indication of US Muslim opinions. What's more, Muslims in other countries have surely figured it out by now.

 

[Elind]

US Muslims are probably afraid to protest too loudly, even in a peaceful manner. After all, any Muslim who has relatives outside the country probably has their phones tapped. Muslim silence is more of a dark commentary on our political atmosphere than an indication of US Muslim opinions. What's more, Muslims in other countries have surely figured it out by now.

I think that is ridiculous, and insulting to most US Muslims as well.

 

[Kopji]

I think that is ridiculous, and insulting to most US Muslims as well.

Oh, I don't think it is ridiculous. I think for how badly they have been treated in general, they've been pretty quiet about it.

WASHINGTON, Feb 21 (Reuters) - Arab-Americans contended on Tuesday that bias and bigotry, not security concerns, lay behind the uproar over a deal that would place commercial operations at six U.S. ports in the hands of an Arab company...

..."I find some of the rhetoric being used against this deal shameful and irresponsible. There is bigotry coming out here," said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute.

...He said politicians were exploiting fears left over from Sept. 11 to gain advantage in a congressional election year.

..."Bush is vulnerable so the Democrats jump on it. The Republicans feel vulnerable so they jump on it. The slogan is, if it's Arab, it's bad. Hammer away," Zogby said.

...Rabiah Ahmed of the Council on American-Islamic Relations said members of her organization also believed anti-Arab bigotry was driving the debate.

..."The perception in the Arab-American community is that this is related to anti-Arab sentiment," she said.
http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=38994&theType=NB

“President Bush’s wiretapping policy is not only an apparent violation of existing law, it also gives carte blanche for spying, without legal oversight, on any American,” said CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad. “Such wide-ranging and unrestricted powers are an invitation to abuse of constitutional rights and freedoms, and should be of concern to everyone in a society based on respect for the law.” Awad added that such unrestricted surveillance powers could be expanded and used to spy on those who hold dissenting political views.
http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=1926&theType=NR

A poll released last month by the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Muslim civil-rights group, revealed that 57 percent of 945 American Muslims surveyed experienced bias or discrimination since the terrorist attacks, and 87 percent knew of a fellow Muslim who experienced discrimination. The same poll also found that 79 percent of American Muslims also felt kindness or support from friends or colleagues of other faiths because of the backlash.

...Yet for the successes felt locally, some Muslims are discouraged and angry by what they are seeing done by the federal government and the depiction of Muslims in the media.

They have witnessed more than 1,100 people, mostly Muslims from Arab, Middle Eastern or south Asian countries, being taken into custody and held, often on charges related to immigration.

Muslims are concerned that they are being targeted by several new laws that expand government's power to track people. For example, the Justice Department last year sought to question about 5,000 men, primarily from Muslim countries; and there have been changes to the national immigration laws, which require fingerprinting foreign visitors.

http://www.allied-media.com/Arab-American/muslims_reach_out.htm

 

[PixyMisa]

Partly, but they are also upset about any image with the label Mohammed under it. Nobody knows what he looked like of course, so presumably the same would apply to your picture. In fact, on second thought, it would probably be far more upsetting than the bomb thingy

Except that there are pictures of Mohammed all over the place. So the whole thing looks very artificial.

 

[Elind]

Oh, I don't think it is ridiculous. I think for how badly they have been treated in general, they've been pretty quiet about it.

Where do you live out on your rim?

James Zogby is a Christian Arab who has made a career (IE for money) of pretending to be an expert on Middle East affairs. Just another talking head. On top of that you quote one topic (the ports issue) that came up after your first post and really says nothing at all about how Americans who are Muslims are treated in the US as a whole.

CAIR is just another self serving promotional group, more interested in getting press for themselves than anything else. I've heard them on Cspan, and while they certainly have more smarts than the average fundie in Pakistan, and self control, if you take away the "Muslim" label they sound exactly like any other way out left wing wanabe socialist gathering. "Rise up brothers" and all that crap. Their method is to find boogeymen in every corner and make noise for the press.

As to the ports issue, I agree that there is a undercurrent of bias against "muslims" in that, and you know what......in light of what we have seen recently I can understand it. The UAE, Dubai, Abu Dhabi are civil places. You should visit. But the truth is still that they are far more concerned with making money than anything else and they have a fair share of fundies buried inside. They have no problem selling anything to anyone, or granting a profitable favor to anyone, be it buying stolen goods oil from Iraq, or selling nuclear related materials to Iran. Trade is the name of the game. They won't place groups of terrorists in our ports, but they certainly can have the power to place a few select people wherever they want, for a price.

What pisses me off in this is why the USA doesn't have any companies capable or willing to manage ports. Next thing you know we won't make underwear in the US either.

 

[Elind]

So the whole thing looks very artificial.

Of course it is, as has been well document by those who can read, but not to the rioting masses. To them it's very real.

 

[Kopji]

Where do you live out on your rim?...

...What pisses me off in this is why the USA doesn't have any companies capable or willing to manage ports. Next thing you know we won't make underwear in the US either.

I posted some information that showed my comment was not 'ridiculous'. You are welcome to do the same. -shrug-

You don't see the relevance of the port issue?
The Muslims are simply wondering why we could have the UK managing the US ports for a long time, but when the UAE takes it over it is a big deal.

And I don't know that there aren't lots of US companies managing ports. Maybe there are just a few they don't. Maybe the US companies are out managing other countries ports. If it pisses you off, go find out why instead of making fun of me living out in the boonie backwoods... I'm sensitive about that and it hurts my feelings.

 

[Elind]

I posted some information that showed my comment was not 'ridiculous'. You are welcome to do the same. -shrug-

You don't see the relevance of the port issue?
The Muslims are simply wondering why we could have the UK managing the US ports for a long time, but when the UAE takes it over it is a big deal.

And I don't know that there aren't lots of US companies managing ports. Maybe there are just a few they don't. Maybe the US companies are out managing other countries ports. If it pisses you off, go find out why instead of making fun of me living out in the boonie backwoods... I'm sensitive about that and it hurts my feelings.

I commented on your choice of examples. Anyone can come up with one or two comments and then claim a vast generalization that they don't prove.

I said I do see the relevance of the port issue, but not that it shows that US muslims have been treated abominably which was your main point. Most US muslims probably understand that their barbarian bretheren give them a bad name, but most non US muslims also see that they don't behave the same way here.

As to your feeling. No intent to hurt, but you don't seem to see many muslims out in the boonies on the rim. I shop in their stores all the time.

 

[Kopji]

...have been treated abominably which was your main point. Most US muslims probably understand that their barbarian bretheren give

Well I said no such thing or made no such point. You can adjust what I wrote, build a strawman out of it and burn it down for all I care, but it does not really touch what I expressed. If you don't like the sources I posted feel free to post some of your own. Something that indicates US Muslims feel just as free as the rest of us would be fine. I'm always willing to be corrected by facts, it happens all the time. I don't like being wrong but it helps keep me from thinking I'm right when I don't really have anything to offer but assertions and rhetoric.

If you would like to rely on anecdotal personal stories, I can do that too. I like personal stories. We have a couple of Arab owned businesses in town, they were victims of vandalism after 911 until some of the town came together to help protect the businesses. So I know that the owners are sensitive to how public sentiment can work for or against them. Hard for me to stretch that single incident and imagine it applies to all Muslims though. It would be like shopping there, and then thinking all Arabs were just like them. That would seem a little offensive.

I am just saying US Muslims have reason to fear their own government if they exercise their freedom of speech. They probably consider remaining quiet a wise course of action. Because of that, we can't read very much into the "quiet" US Muslim response - it is more nuanced than saying they are all more moderate for some reason. Now, they might BE more moderate for all I know, but we can't tell merely by the lack of protest.