Muslims: GET OVER IT

[Dcdrac]

my muslim freinds here at work, four of them, have np rpoblem with the cartoons, mind you we are all tech support people here and so probaley more rational than others.

Can i prove that? er well maybe you see it starts from quantum physics impacting on this, that and the other and bingo all tech support people are designed to be rational.

 

[Elind]

Well I said no such thing or made no such point.

You said: Oh, I don't think it is ridiculous. I think for how badly they have been treated in general

I said; that's ridiculous. They have not been treated so badly "in general". There has been no persecution of Muslims in the US, whatever individual incidents you think make that case.

You can adjust what I wrote, build a strawman out of it and burn it down for all I care, but it does not really touch what I expressed.

If you don't like the sources I posted feel free to post some of your own.

I responded quite specifically to your "sources", to which you respond with the above.

Something that indicates US Muslims feel just as free as the rest of us would be fine. I'm always willing to be corrected by facts, it happens all the time. I don't like being wrong but it helps keep me from thinking I'm right when I don't really have anything to offer but assertions and rhetoric.

No. You made the allegation. You support it. Don't ask me to prove different. Ask Randi if you don't understand the principle.
The two sources you gave are biased towards self serving news, IMHO.

If you would like to rely on anecdotal personal stories, I can do that too. I like personal stories. We have a couple of Arab owned businesses in town, they were victims of vandalism after 911 until some of the town came together to help protect the businesses. So I know that the owners are sensitive to how public sentiment can work for or against them. Hard for me to stretch that single incident and imagine it applies to all Muslims though. It would be like shopping there, and then thinking all Arabs were just like them. That would seem a little offensive.

I'm not relying on anectdotes. You are. On the one hand you say there were a couple of incidents. On the other you say everyone came together to heal them. Which is the most telling anecdote here?

I am just saying US Muslims have reason to fear their own government if they exercise their freedom of speech.

Why is that? You think they are stupid enough to think they may be arrested for discussing a hernia operation with someone in the Middle East? Does your freedom of speech say that discussing support for terrorism should be protected? I'm sure very few do the latter and are smart enough not to feel discriminated against because they don't.

They probably consider remaining quiet a wise course of action. Because of that, we can't read very much into the "quiet" US Muslim response - it is more nuanced than saying they are all more moderate for some reason. Now, they might BE more moderate for all I know, but we can't tell merely by the lack of protest.

Remain quiet about what? You are really waffling here, signifying nothing. I think I can tell a lot about lack of protest. Mostly it means they think it (protest like we have seen elsewhere) signifies stupidity. If you think it is out of fear you must think that they are really closet supporters of terrorists and keep quiet for that reason. If so then I think they should be afraid and that is a good thing, but in fact I think they are mostly not, and would find your condescending attitude insulting.

 

[Kopji]

You said: Oh, I don't think it is ridiculous. I think for how badly they have been treated in general

I said; that's ridiculous.

They have not been treated so badly "in general". There has been no persecution of Muslims in the US, whatever individual incidents you think make that case.



I responded quite specifically to your "sources", to which you respond with the above.

No. You made the allegation. You support it. Don't ask me to prove different. Ask Randi if you don't understand the principle.
The two sources you gave are biased towards self serving news, IMHO.

I'm not relying on anectdotes. You are. On the one hand you say there were a couple of incidents. On the other you say everyone came together to heal them. Which is the most telling anecdote here?

Why is that? You think they are stupid enough to think they may be arrested for discussing a hernia operation with someone in the Middle East? Does your freedom of speech say that discussing support for terrorism should be protected? I'm sure very few do the latter and are smart enough not to feel discriminated against because they don't.

Remain quiet about what? You are really waffling here, signifying nothing. I think I can tell a lot about lack of protest. Mostly it means they think it (protest like we have seen elsewhere) signifies stupidity. If you think it is out of fear you must think that they are really closet supporters of terrorists and keep quiet for that reason. If so then I think they should be afraid and that is a good thing, but in fact I think they are mostly not, and would find your condescending attitude insulting.

Elind, you called my comment "ridiculous" BEFORE I posted the other information to show that it was not. I was replying to YOU. The thread sort of flows oldest to newest, with the newer threads on the bottom and the earlier ones on top.

You defended your comment by telling me you knew some Arabs and they were doing fine, so I was wrong. Also, that the sources I posted were doodyheads and you don't like them. Great. One of them contains the results of a survey. Would you like to refute that? So post some evidence. You can't just say that because the data is from someone you don't like so won't read it.

I responded by saying I knew some Muslims that weren't doing "fine" IN RESPONSE TO YOUR OWN ANECDOTAL STORY. Yeah, the proper reaction to that exchange should be confusion. Good, because it's all meaningless.

So take my comment in the context it was given, as Muslims being treated badly in the sense of exercising freedom of speech. I'm not saying we torture them (at least inside the US).

Your final paragraph seems better to respond to in more detail. (Yours in italics)

Remain quiet about what?
Protesting about the cartoons, that what this thread is about.

You are really waffling here, signifying nothing. I think I can tell a lot about lack of protest. Mostly it means they think it (protest like we have seen elsewhere) signifies stupidity.

So how do you know what they think? I posted the results of a survey that indicated how they might think. You are coming across as valuing what you've already decided above any evidence. So give us some evidence. I am not just going to take your word for it, that is an argument from authority.

If you think it is out of fear you must think that they are really closet supporters of terrorists and keep quiet for that reason.

Oh that's just nutty, I don't think that at all. Did you read anything I posted? Muslims are being deported. They are not terrorists, they are probably breaking some obscure law. Maybe they don't want photographs of themselves in some FBI logbook somewhere.

If so then I think they should be afraid and that is a good thing, but in fact I think they are mostly not, and would find your condescending attitude insulting.

And that's just fine. Go ahead and think that. That hardly makes people who disagree with you "ridiculous". All I really needed to do to refute what you said was link popularly respected opinions that aligned with what I stated.

I did much more than that and have gone the extra mile.

 

[Kopji]

A few snips from an 'educational' event in 2002.
This event, btw, is almost completely expunged from US news sources. Sorry to link to sites like "why war" with an obvious bias, but the story has mostly ceased to exist here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2589317.stm
Dec 19, 2002

US immigration officials in Southern California have detained hundreds of Iranians and other Muslim men who turned up to register under residence laws brought in as part of the anti-terror drive.

Reports say between 500 and 700 men were arrested in and around Los Angeles after they complied with an order to register by 16 December.

..."We are getting a lot of telephone calls from people. We are hearing that people went down wanting to co-operate and then they were detained."

Islamic community leaders said many detainees had been living, working and paying taxes in the US for up to a decade and had families there.

http://www.iranian.com/Features/2002/December/LA2/index.html

Los Angeles -- Iranian Jewish community is joined together with area Muslims in accusing the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service of mistreatment during a federally mandated registration of certain immigrants.

The Iranian Jews, together with a much larger number of Muslims from Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Sudan and Syria, were detained during a national registration process of those temporarily residing in the United States.

http://www.why-war.com/features/2003/07/hundreds.html

CNN reported yesterday that in addition to the six individuals, plaintiffs also include the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, Alliance of Iranian-Americans, Council on American Islamic Relations and the National Council of Pakistani Americans. Their legal foundation is that "the arrests were illegal because the government did not have warrants, that it is unlawful to arrest and deport people who are eligible to apply for permanent status, and some detainees were already pursuing legal residency." The Justice Department has a policy of not responding to pending litigation, a spokesperson said, and the INS did not return calls.