Mumia Abu-Jamal: Guilty or innocent?

[Barber Shop]

Unjust imprisonment is unjust imprisonment, no matter who the victim.

Who would disagree with that?

Then people should find someone who is actually unjustly imprisoned, because Mumia couldn't be more justly imprisoned.

This.

 

[Barber Shop]

No doubt, but that has nothing to do with the suggestion that unjust imprisonment doesn't matter if the victim has previously done something wrong.

Okay, I see your point...That was not what I was trying to say in my post, but I think it could be read that way...So, fair enough.

I SHOULD have more clearly emphasized the strong evidence against him...I wanted to say that, surely, there is some guy whose guilt is far more questionable that would have made a better cause...

I did NOT mean to imply that, since he was not a swell guy, we should let an innocent man rot in prison.


ETA: I was really trying to point out how his supporters have CAST him as an oppressed freedom-fighter...This characterization seems way off regardless of his guilt or innocence. He was mostly certainly not a righteous revolutionary, but a common thug...My question centered around the fact that this guy has attracted so much attention and I think that image of 'fighting the Man' plays a big part. It is also an image that Mumia has used to his full advantage.

 

[applecorped]

 

[geni]

Your instncts are correct. Guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, his supporters useful idiots of the highest degree.

Not really. His supporters aren't useful to anyone (Mumia Abu-Jamal's fate has been/will be settled by lawyers the public is simply irrelivant).

 

[BStrong]

Guilty.

 

[WildCat]

Not really. His supporters aren't useful to anyone (Mumia Abu-Jamal's fate has been/will be settled by lawyers the public is simply irrelivant).

His fate could also be determined by a governor sympathetic to his cause because he was swayed by the useful idiots, or purely for political reasons that exist because of the useful idiots.

 

[geni]

His fate could also be determined by a governor sympathetic to his cause because he was swayed by the useful idiots, or purely for political reasons that exist because of the useful idiots.

How many governors out there are prepared to irritate the Fraternal Order of Police?

 

[HumanityBlues]

Well, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks he's guilty. I am surprised no one on the forum has said they think he is innocent.

I found this on yahoo answers. Not a credible source obviously, but gives some fodder I guess:

* The policeman was killed with a 44 caliber gun. Abu-Jamal's gun which he was licensed to carry as a night-time taxi driver, was a 38 caliber.

* The police never tested Abu-Jamal's gun to see if it had been recently fired. They never tested his hands to see if he had fired a gun. They have never shown Abu-Jamal 's gun to be the fatal weapon.

* No police officers present at Abu-Jamal's arrest claimed to have heard Jamal's "confession" until two months after it allegedly occurred. This was right after Abu-Jamal had filed police brutality charges.

* Abu-Jamal's doctor said that Abu-Jamal, who was unconscious, said nothing. He reported that a nurse found police with loaded guns pointed at Mumia as he lay unconscious in his hospital bed.

* William Singletary, a Vietnam veteran and local businessman, saw the whole incident and has testified that Abu-Jamal was not the shooter. However, the police forced him to change his story and intimidated him into leaving Philadelphia.

The case basically rests on a questionable forensics report and four eye witnesses.

 

[Sledge]

There's a bit more to the case than that. For example, Abu-Jamal was indisputably present at the scene.

 

[HumanityBlues]

There's a bit more to the case than that. For example, Abu-Jamal was indisputably present at the scene.

I still think he's guilty. I'm just trying to find out how this guy got so many supporters. What do they think is so compelling about the case for his innocence?

 

[Sledge]

At a guess, I'd say it's because they're idiots who know nothing about the case so just assume that the black guy was framed by The Man.

 

[dudalb]

Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The idiots who think he is innocent are a prime example of how political ideology can overcome facts and reality.
IMHO life imprisonment vs the Death Penalty is a different argument then whether hs is guilty or not.

 

[Beerina]

The letter-writer linked from the Duke Chronicle stated, "The fact is that ballistics testing linked the bullets found in the officer's body to Abu-Jamal's gun, a gun purchased and registered in Abu-Jamal's name and found at Abu-Jamal's side on the scene. The fact is that testing also identified the bullet that wounded Abu-Jamal as coming from the officer's weapon." On the other hand Terry Bisson wrote, "Mumia says it was someone else, and several witnesses saw another shooter flee the scene. Mumia's legally registered .38 was never decisively linked to Faulkner's wounds."

Lori Allen wrote, "In addition, the relative widths of the lands and grooves on the bullet reportedly taken from Faulkner's head wound is opposite of all, but a few percent of the Charter Arms revolvers produced. Thus, the prosecution's ballistics evidence (or lack thereof) itself raises a strong likelihood that the bullet in evidence from Faulkner's head wound was not fired by Mumia's gun. The police ballistics tests were admittedly "inconclusive" because properly and competently performed ballistics would exclude Mumia's gun as the murder weapon." I don't have any special knowledge of ballistics. However, if I were to get interested in this case, I would look into whether the National Academy of Sciences had anything to say about it in their 2009 report on forensics. Allen's article also raises the question of whether the gun found at the scene was really the officer's service revolver.

"After Mumia's conviction, Sabo instructed the jury: 'You are not being asked to kill anybody' by imposing the death penalty, since the defendant will get 'appeal after appeal after appeal.' Such instruction, grounds for reversal since Caldwell vs. Mississippi, was allowed in Mumia's case." I don't have any opinion on Mumia's guilt or innocence at this point. But I think the Judge's instructions were wrong.

I'm surprised such an instruction ever got off the ground. If the death penalty has any ethical validity, it would be as imposed by a jury of The People.

Contrary to that instruction, only a jury may justly impose it, and, specifically, not an agent of the government.

 

[kookbreaker]

Well, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks he's guilty. I am surprised no one on the forum has said they think he is innocent.

I found this on yahoo answers. Not a credible source obviously, but gives some fodder I guess:

* The policeman was killed with a 44 caliber gun. Abu-Jamal's gun which he was licensed to carry as a night-time taxi driver, was a 38 caliber.

Mythmaking. The coroner made a note that the bullet pulled out of Faulkner "appear to be a .44." He was looking at a mashed up bullet and guessing. This comment only appeared in his notes, not his final report. Even Mumia's own Ballistics expert admits it was a .38 bullet.

* The police never tested Abu-Jamal's gun to see if it had been recently fired.

Not needed. When several witnesses say they saw Mumia firing the gun, and the only other gun on the scene is Faulkner's service revolver, and the Mumia's gun has 5 empty casings in it - this really isn't needed.

They never tested his hands to see if he had fired a gun.

A useless test. Mumia's hands would have been contaminated by the other officers he grabbed him and arrested him

They have never shown Abu-Jamal 's gun to be the fatal weapon.

White they lack the ballistics info to point to Mumia's gun to the exclusion of all other guns in the world, Mumia's gun still fits all the other characteristics (ammo matching) and was the only gun at the scene that did so. To believe otherwise you have to think the following:

1) Mumia drover around with a gun that had five empty shells in the chambers
2) Mumia showed up at a scene where a policeman had just been shot by someone with and identical gun and identical ammuntion.

This is why the judge says 'reasonable doubt'

* No police officers present at Abu-Jamal's arrest claimed to have heard Jamal's "confession" until two months after it allegedly occurred. This was right after Abu-Jamal had filed police brutality charges.

Not what happened. The confession was reported after the fact after a very stressful night of watching their friend DIE. The confession was supported by hospital security.

* Abu-Jamal's doctor said that Abu-Jamal, who was unconscious, said nothing.

Mumia was not unconscious. He resisted treatment. He didn't say anything to the doctor because he ahd already said it outside the hospital.

He reported that a nurse found police with loaded guns pointed at Mumia as he lay unconscious in his hospital bed.

And?

* William Singletary, a Vietnam veteran and local businessman, saw the whole incident and has testified that Abu-Jamal was not the shooter. However, the police forced him to change his story and intimidated him into leaving Philadelphia.

William Singletary's story was frankly ludicrous. With the events being done in a bizarro drive-by, with 'noble Mumia' coming to aid Faulkner and Faulkner';s revolver going off magically. The tale is so silly that some wondered if Singletary was actually in the area. He actually was asked by a cop (Vernon Jones) uif he had seen what happened and responded "no".

The case basically rests on a questionable forensics report and four eye witnesses.

And the fact that there was no one else present to commit the crime (with the possible exception of Mumia's brother - but I doubt that).

 

[kookbreaker]

I still think he's guilty. I'm just trying to find out how this guy got so many supporters. What do they think is so compelling about the case for his innocence?

Several factors:

1) A lot of Mumia supporters probably don't even know the events of that night one iota. They are told that Mumia is a 'political prisoner' and that's all they need to hear. Never mind that his actual crime is murdering a police officer, a lot of them have no idea. For a handful that actually hear about the crime, all they need are a few myths told to them and they line up quite nicely. This works best when the myths are presented in a Rage Against the Machine music video.

2) The Mumia myth-making machine had free reign in the media for a while with almost no counter-arguments presented. A few carefully selected 'facts' were used along with some rather bizarre ideas of how courts work were enough to convince a lot of the naive. Just remember how 9/11 truthers worked - only without the skeptical counteroffensive.

3) Mumia fits a nice niche for some. Here is a well-spoken, poetry-writing dreadlocked black man who was railroaded by 'the system'. To some, the evidence doesn't even matter at that point.

4) Mumia has let others do his story-telling for him without saying anything about what he actually did that night. The benefit here is similar to what those who would exonerate Oswald do. Without the a narrative to break down you can never prove to some people that he did the deed.

5) There is also a crowd of Mumia supporters who want it both ways. Daniel Faulkner, they say, had it coming. He was obviously a racist, corrupt cop doing all kinds of vile things (to hear the MOVE members tell it) and deserved to be killed by Mumia - but Mumia didn't do it!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

photos

Here is a discussion of some photographic evidence: “Then there’s also a number of shots showing deliberate manipulation and corruption of the crime scene. One of the police officers testified that when he got there he secured the slain officer’s gun and Abu Jamal’s gun, which was in fact was registered to him. The photos show over a sequence of time that the police officer is holding the guns in his hand. He’s holding them by the grips, he’s holding them by the barrels, he’s holding them by the trigger guards,” Mr. Washington continued, but there was no evidence presented in court showing fingerprints on the weapons. The guns had been wiped clean of fingerprints by the police.

IANAL but is not clear to me why the charge was first degree murder, as opposed to second degree.

 

[jhunter1163]

He's obviously guilty. He should have been executed years ago.

 

[kookbreaker]

Here is a discussion of some photographic evidence: “Then there’s also a number of shots showing deliberate manipulation and corruption of the crime scene. One of the police officers testified that when he got there he secured the slain officer’s gun and Abu Jamal’s gun, which was in fact was registered to him. The photos show over a sequence of time that the police officer is holding the guns in his hand. He’s holding them by the grips, he’s holding them by the barrels, he’s holding them by the trigger guards,” Mr. Washington continued, but there was no evidence presented in court showing fingerprints on the weapons. The guns had been wiped clean of fingerprints by the police.

Conversely:

http://antimove.blogspot.com/2007/12/crime-scene-photographs-of-pedro.html

That’s exactly what can be seen on the photos: James Forbes holding the weapons in his left hand, not touching the metal parts. All other claims by Abu-Jamal’s supporters have been taken out of thin air. If there is a photo showing Forbes touching the metal parts, it should be presented. A simple statement is not sufficient.

IANAL but is not clear to me why the charge was first degree murder, as opposed to second degree.

Once Mumia stood over Faulkner and shot him in the face execution-style, it was no longer 2nd degree.

 

[Caper]

I listen to the true murder podcast. They had a writer on that made a good case for his innocence. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[kookbreaker]

His fate could also be determined by a governor sympathetic to his cause because he was swayed by the useful idiots, or purely for political reasons that exist because of the useful idiots.

Seems unlikely. Most of the recent PA governors have been Republicans who aren't too keen on being seen as soft on crime.

The only Democrat in the governor's seat in recent memory was the Philadelphia DA in charge during Mumia's trial. Oooh, tough luck there....

There's also the minor detail that most denizens of PA, particularly Philadelphia know he's guilty as sin no matter what their political leanings.