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COMPLETE UNADULTERATED FECES.

Most people don't lie without reasons. The problem isn't the FBI. It's Trump and his associates. They probably were just covering up other corruption and not necessarily collusion.

You're blaming the cop for being naturally suspicious of your guilty behavior.

No. I'm blaming you for assuming what that guilt is.

And if you don't understand that there are in fact problems at the FBI, then you haven't been paying attention. Did you not know, for example, that FBI agents were exchanging leaks for gifts? Did you not know that the FBI continued to use a source that had violated FBI rules about source behavior? And that's just in this case, they've done far far worse. The FBI being dirty doesn't make their suspects clean, but there really is dirt at the FBI.
 
That was a joke. And obviously so.
You think so? The Russians took him seriously enough, didn't they?

No they didn't. They hacked the DNC's email. The DNC servers did not contain Hillary's state department emails, which is what Trump was talking about.
Trump asked them to find the missing emails. By that point, I believe, the Clinton server was no longer accessible, but the DNC server was. If you were looking for something, would you look in the places that exist or places that, effectively, no longer exist?


Argument from incredulity? Really?
No, not really. Remember when I said that I was confused by this and wanted to read the report so I could understand? This is not making an argument. This is explaining why I don't understand Barr's summary and that I want to know more.


And there's been plenty of moves that hurt Russian interests. How do you explain those if there was supposedly collusion?
Has he though? I seem to remember it took an overriding act of Congress for him to agree to put sanctions on Russia(ns). Beyond that, well.
 
I've mentioned this quote before recently, but the response to the Mueller report's release has really refreshed its relevance:



How many people here, upon hearing that Mueller found no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, were disappointed rather than relieved? If you felt the former and not the latter, well, the impulse is quite human and understandable. But it is also wrong.

I don't think it is pedantic to point out that "did not establish" is not the same as "no evidence of" in this discussion.

Example: That the prosecutor did not establish that OJ murdered his wife and her companion before a criminal jury did not stop a civil jury from finding that there was sufficient evidence to find him financially liable for their murders.
 
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Furthermore, until the FBI starts recording their interviews, I don't trust one god damn accusation of lying from anyone in that organization. It's really unconscionable that this is standard procedure. The FBI has some serious institutional rot which predates this whole mess.

And likewise, I won't trust anyone you ever vote for until everything they say and do is being recorded. They are all deeply suspect people who require constant surveillance.
 
I don't think it is pedantic to point out that "did not establish" is not the same as "no evidence of" in this discussion.

Not at all. Legalese is very precise. That phrasing was quite intentional, as was "did not exonerate".
 
No. I'm blaming you for assuming what that guilt is.

And if you don't understand that there are in fact problems at the FBI, then you haven't been paying attention. Did you not know, for example, that FBI agents were exchanging leaks for gifts? Did you not know that the FBI continued to use a source that had violated FBI rules about source behavior? And that's just in this case, they've done far far worse. The FBI being dirty doesn't make their suspects clean, but there really is dirt at the FBI.


There you go again. Blaming the FBI for investigating very suspicious behavior. You keep ignoring that Trump lied about what the meeting was about. And that he lied about Trump Tower and that Trump did almost everything in his power to derail the investigation. And that his son lied to Congress and investigators. As did his son in law. And how he hid over and over and over his Russian contacts. Or that Flynn did too as well as others including his campaign manager and deputy. Or that Trump fired Comey to halt the investigation.

Overall, the FBI is one great organization. But like EVERY organization it's made up of humans. That you may discover flaws and even occasional corruption is not surprising in such a big organization. It will ALWAYS be the case.

Accusing the FBI of being bad is total diversion.
 
Another very fine piece by Caitlin Johnstone: The Illusory Truth Effect: How Millions Were Duped By Russiagate

Caitlin Johnstone said:
“Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy”, read the front page headline of Sunday’s New York Times. Bit by bit, mainstream American consciousness is slowly coming to terms with the death of the thrilling conspiracy theory that the highest levels of the US government had been infiltrated by the Kremlin, and with the stark reality that the mass media and the Democratic Party spent the last two and-a-half years monopolizing public attention with a narrative which never had any underlying truth to it.

There are still holdouts, of course. Many people invested a tremendous amount of hope, credibility, and egoic currency in the belief that Robert Mueller was going to arrest high-ranking Trump administration officials and members of Trump’s own family, leading seedy characters to “flip” on the president in their own self-interest and thereby providing evidence that will lead to impeachment. Some insist that Attorney General William Barr is holding back key elements of the Mueller report, a claim which is premised on the absurd belief that Mueller would allow Barr to lie about the results of the investigation without speaking up publicly. Others are still holding out hope that other investigations by other legal authorities will turn up some Russian shenanigans that Mueller could not, ignoring Mueller’s sweeping subpoena powers and unrivaled investigative authority. But they’re coming around.

The question still remains, though: what the hell happened? How did a fact-free conspiracy theory come to gain so much traction among mainstream Americans? How were millions of people persuaded to invest hope in a narrative that anyone objectively analyzing the facts knew to be completely false? [...]
 
Trump asked them to find the missing emails. By that point, I believe, the Clinton server was no longer accessible, but the DNC server was. If you were looking for something, would you look in the places that exist or places that, effectively, no longer exist?

Why in the hell would Clinton's state department emails end up on the DNC server? Why would anyone even think they would end up there? This is an underpants gnome theory.

Has he though? I seem to remember it took an overriding act of Congress for him to agree to put sanctions on Russia(ns). Beyond that, well.

Sanctions on Russia are largely symbolic and pretty ineffective. What isn't symbolic is energy prices. Trump has pushed to expand fracking, which drives oil prices down and hurts Putin far more than sanctions ever could, and actually works to constrain what Putin can do. Our withdrawl from the intermediate range nuclear weapons treaty is also a major blow to Putin, who has been violating the treaty for years while benefiting from our compliance. And Trump has pushed hard for NATO allies to increase military spending. That effort hasn't been successful yet, but it still runs directly against Russian interests. And we've been selling weapons to Ukraine, instead of just giving nonlethal aid as we did under Obama. Given the continued tensions between Ukraine and Russia, that's pretty much as anti-Russian a move as you can get short of directly attacking them.

There's certainly room to criticize Trump on the sanctions issue. But this idea that he's been acting as a Russian toady, well, it doesn't match actual events. There's been too much anti-Russian moves for that charge to make any sense. If there ever was an agreement between Trump and Putin regarding the election, then Trump cheated Putin out of whatever it was, because he's not delivering to Putin where it actually counts.
 
Blithering, 200 proof, fact-deprived stupidity. Looking at the positives, she does use punctuation marks properly.

The fact that Mueller was unable to array sufficient evidence to cross the threshold of criminality tells me very little. I never expected collusion to be proven. I suspected, and still suspect, that Trump's legal risks involve his finances.
 
The Trump campaign was briefed on the situation. What didn't happen was the deep state briefing the electorate on the situation.

Apart from which, "I love it", remember that? The New York Trump Tower meeting? Doesn't sound like Fredo needed "warning" about Russian efforts on his POS father's behalf, does it?
Please to forgive, but it should actually be “300 lb., fetid ‘n flaming, double-walled bag” OS.

Not to be pedantic.
 
There you go again, making a straw man. The fact that the FBI investigated isn't the problem I'm complaining about.

You're just whining to whine I guess. You keep demonizing the FBI over very minor things. And the only reason I can see you doing that for is for carrying on Trump's poor me and witch hunt routine.
 
Why in the hell would Clinton's state department emails end up on the DNC server? Why would anyone even think they would end up there? This is an underpants gnome theory.
erm. I'm not saying this is an argument for or against, but you know that in that episode of South Park, the underpants gnomes theory was correct, right? Maybe not the best euphemism.
 
Blithering, 200 proof, fact-deprived stupidity. Looking at the positives, she does use punctuation marks properly.

The fact that Mueller was unable to array sufficient evidence to cross the threshold of criminality tells me very little. I never expected collusion to be proven. I suspected, and still suspect, that Trump's legal risks involve his finances.

Which, mind you, there are still investigations working on.

I'm not, admittedly, familiar with the Special Prosecutor process, but it seems like unless it was specifically for Russian Collusion it was mostly passed off to someone else. I think that's why Trump jr, etc. haven't been spoken too. I think Mueller had all the emails from the Trump tower meeting and couldn't prove anything beyond "damn that's sketchy". That being said, all of the financial stuff, I don't think, Mueller wanted to touch. That didn't interest him, so we honestly haven't seen the "meat and 'tatas", as they say in NoDak, of what it going to come out in total.

That's why I find Trump supporters bragging about Trump not being in trouble so hilarious. I have a right wing buddy that said last night, "Watching Fox News is like watching porn right now". This is literally the right's "money shot". There wasn't enough evidence to charge the President with one of the worst crimes in the country, and that's a victory to them. The sad part is all of the terrible things they do find are going to seem like nothing because this is what the right will hang its hat on. My buddy said it himself. I said, "weren't there like 30 charges", and he replied with, "not for collusion".

Hell of a W. As TBD would say, "Trump 2020, at least we didn't collude with the Russians!"
 
You're just whining to whine I guess.

That's an ironic accusation, given that this thread now consists mostly of people whining about how the Mueller report doesn't mean Trump is innocent.

Orange man will always be bad, I guess.
 
That's an ironic accusation, given that this thread now consists mostly of people whining about how the Mueller report doesn't mean Trump is innocent.
I don't see anyone whining.

Orange man will always be bad, I guess.

Yes. The Orange man is bad. You finally said something I agree with. I consider ANYONE who lies that much and is that self centered to be bad.

Be honest now. Would you want your children or friends or colleagues to behave as Trump does?
 
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