Cont: Mueller Investigation pt3

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Drysdale said:
So this isn't about Russian interference at all in your view, it's to nail Trump for anything possible? Is that correct?
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So this isn't about the rule of law at all in your view; if Donald Trump is guilty of any crimes we must overlook that because he's a Republican president. Is that correct?
 
Drysdale said:
So this isn't about Russian interference at all in your view, it's to nail Trump for anything possible? Is that correct?
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It started out about Russian interference in the Trump campaign. Obviously, in the course of that investigation, Mueller uncovered crimes committed by others that he either charged and prosecuted under federal law or turned over to the state when the crimes were under state jurisdiction. As he was given the right to pursue any and all crimes uncovered, this is what he should have done and should do. If Mueller uncovers criminal acts by Trump and/or his campaign what would you have him do? Just ignore them? If Trump and/or his campaign staff have done nothing wrong, then that will be revealed and he has nothing to worry about. On the other hand, he has acted since the beginning like someone very, very scared.
 
Drysdale said:
So this isn't about Russian interference at all in your view, it's to nail Trump for anything possible? Is that correct?
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One is not the other. Also, I wasn't talking about the Mueller investigation per se. Maybe, I should have created a separate thread. But considering Trump is under investigation for his charities, by the SDNY for various things, being sued for emoluments that I thought I would post my question here.

It seems that based purely on what the NY Times uncovered. It warrants further investigation into Trump's financial affairs. Don't you think? Or should the government ignore Trump committing tax fraud?

Or do the laws only pertain to everyone else?
 
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acbytesla said:
It seems that based purely on what the NY Times uncovered. It warrants further investigation into Trump's financial affairs. Don't you think?
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No, that would come under the heading of 'nailing Trump for anything possible'. Of course if any of his financial affairs are uncovered while investigating Russian interference they should not be ignored.

However trying to prosecute him is pointless because the president cannot commit a crime while in office, and if we 'nail' him for something he did beforehand he can just pardon himself.

Or do the laws only pertain to everyone else?
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It may seem unfair but yes, according to the Constitution the president is above the law. But Trump won't be president forever. The best time to 'nail' him is after his term is finished.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
No, that would come under the heading of 'nailing Trump for anything possible'. Of course if any of his financial affairs are uncovered while investigating Russian interference they should not be ignored.

However trying to prosecute him is pointless because the president cannot commit a crime while in office, and if we 'nail' him for something he did beforehand he can just pardon himself.

It may seem unfair but yes, according to the Constitution the president is above the law. But Trump won't be president forever. The best time to 'nail' him is after his term is finished.
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What? The prez cannot commit a crime while in office?! So he really could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square and you think he couldn't be prosecuted for murder? REALLY?
Please tell me exactly where in the Constitution it says the prez is "above the law". I'd like to see it.

Ridiculous.
 
Stacyhs said:
What? The prez cannot commit a crime while in office?! So he really could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square and you think he couldn't be prosecuted for murder? REALLY?
Please tell me exactly where in the Constitution it says the prez is "above the law". I'd like to see it.

Ridiculous.
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Ask Kavanaugh, he is supposed to be the expert.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
No, that would come under the heading of 'nailing Trump for anything possible'. Of course if any of his financial affairs are uncovered while investigating Russian interference they should not be ignored.

However trying to prosecute him is pointless because the president cannot commit a crime while in office, and if we 'nail' him for something he did beforehand he can just pardon himself.
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I'm sorry. I disagree entirely. What is it that Nixon said? 'The people have a right to know the President isn't a crook? ' Even if the President cannot be criminally prosecuted, that doesnt mean he shouldn't be investigated for the crimes he probably committed. The public has a right to know the extent the President is a criminal. It goes to his character.

Roger Ramjets said:
t may seem unfair but yes, according to the Constitution the president is above the law. But Trump won't be president forever. The best time to 'nail' him is after his term is finished.
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It's not about nailing him. It's about having a fully informed electorate. It's having a Congress fully informed so they may choose whether it's an impeachable offense and again and that informs the electorate about their representatives.

Or don't you believe that both have a a responsibility for oversight?
 
Lambchops said:
Which, if true, is absolutely disgusting.
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I think that Roger misses the point totally.

To start with, it is debatable the President has the authority to pardon himself. But even if can, that doesn't put him beyond congressional oversight.

Not to mention, his pardon authority is limited to Federal crimes. If the President committed tax fraud or committed crimes against the State of New York, his pardon authority wouldn't help him.

Also, most importantly, pardoning himself would be tantamount to an admission of guilt and could/should be devastating to him politically and to those who would enable such a scofflaw.
 
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I'm still waiting for a quote from the Constitution stating the president is above the law.
The very thought of it is anathema to the very precepts of this country.

Trump may think he is above the law, but he is not.
 
acbytesla said:
I think that Roger misses the point totally.

To start with, it is debatable the President has the authority to pardon himself. But even if can, that doesn't put him beyond congressional oversight.

Not to mention, his pardon authority is limited to Federal crimes. If the President committed tax fraud or committed crimes against the State of New York, his pardon authority wouldn't help him.

Also, most importantly, pardoning himself would be tantamount to an admission of guilt and could/should be devastating to him politically and to those who would enable such a scofflaw.
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Even if it is limited only to federal crimes, it is still disgusting. Why does a single person deserve that kind of power? And why would you, as citizens in a supposedly "free" country, willingly grant your president that power?

The mind boggles.
 
Lambchops said:
Even if it is limited only to federal crimes, it is still disgusting. Why does a single person deserve that kind of power? And why would you, as citizens in a supposedly "free" country, willingly grant your president that power?

The mind boggles.
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No, we do not. Roger Ramjets is just plain wrong...which is why he has not provided any such quote from the Constitution. Remember that Nixon had to resign as he was going to be impeached and Bill Clinton's law license was suspended for five years for lying to Congress and paid a $25,000 fine.
 
Stacyhs said:
No, we do not. Roger Ramjets is just plain wrong...which is why he has not provided any such quote from the Constitution. Remember that Nixon had to resign as he was going to be impeached and Bill Clinton's law license was suspended for five years for lying to Congress and paid a $25,000 fine.
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I hope you are right.
 
Lambchops said:
Which, if true, is absolutely disgusting.
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Not completely, it's a pretty close analogue of the UK's setup in the eighteenth century.

The king still had a lot of power, but Parliament had certainly demonstrated that it could remove the monarch with prejudice, and in the case of Charles I, an axe.

That is supposedly what impeachment is for.
 
Stacyhs said:
I'm still waiting for a quote from the Constitution stating the president is above the law.
The very thought of it is anathema to the very precepts of this country.

Trump may think he is above the law, but he is not.
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Well, I hope you're not holding your breath while you wait!
 
jimbob said:
Not completely, it's a pretty close analogue of the UK's setup in the eighteenth century.

The king still had a lot of power, but Parliament had certainly demonstrated that it could remove the monarch with prejudice, and in the case of Charles I, an axe.

That is supposedly what impeachment is for.
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So what do you do when the crimes are revealed and the Senate won't proceed with impeachment?
 
uke2se said:
So what do you do when the crimes are revealed and the Senate won't proceed with impeachment?
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Hey - I didn't say it was a good idea. Personally, I think the COTUS was pretty reasonable (excepting slavery) for the Eighteenth Century. However a lot of the checks and balances have been superseded since then. I also see no reason for anyone to be above the law.

In theory, the electorate should punish the senate. As it happens - I'm very worried about the next course of action due to the actions taken to rig the vote and inaction taken to protect the count.

The hope is that it is insufficient and the electorate can vote in sufficient numbers to get
 
jimbob said:
As an outsider, it seems that the GOP is trying hard to ensure the fix is in, in many states, so I'm pessimistic.
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The Constitution has kept our republic strong. The Democrats tried to steal a Supreme Court pick -- failed. The Clintons tried to steal the presidency -- failed. The Dumb Donkeys have repeatedly tried stealing the Senate by getting more votes -- failed.
 
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