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No, that wasn't my point. As has been made perfectly clear repeatedly. Nice try at the spin, though.



Alright. I'll take that as strong confirmation that you're a troll, if you're working to reset the discussion that quickly.


You haven't made a point. You've gish galloped with unrelated evidence to the claim that Russia funneled money through the NRA.

And you can't come up with a specific charge that you think Trump should have been charged with. Probably because you're afraid that someone would hold that charge to the same standard I'm holding your NRA charge.
 
Alright. I'll take that as strong confirmation that you're a troll, if you're working to reset the discussion that quickly.


I haven't reset anything. You've thrown a new claim into the discussion(more gish gallop), so I asked about it. Even though it was unrelated to your NRA claim.

Ad hominem not replied to.
 
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You haven't made a point.

Perhaps try rereading what I originally posted for comprehension, then. What you did in response was to take a bit of that out of context and challenge it in a rather pointedly out of context way.

You've gish galloped with unrelated evidence to the claim that Russia funneled money through the NRA.

Except that I didn't. Separately, though, the circumstantial evidence that the NRA likely did is fairly strong, yes. Not too different from hearing a gunshot and then right afterwards seeing a guy with a gun right next to a corpse that looks like it's been shot. It is, of course, plausible that the guy with the gun did nothing wrong. If the guy with the gun keeps giving answers with wide loopholes to defend himself on investigation and is generally being uncooperative and evasive, that's not at all indicative of innocence, though. If the guy's father steps in to forcefully squelch and suppress investigation into the matter, that's not at all indicative of innocence, either.

That's pretty much the position that we're in with the NRA and potential Russian funneling, after all, which is why your "defense" seems to be pathetically weak.

And you can't come up with a specific charge that you think Trump should have been charged with. Probably because you're afraid that someone would hold that charge to the same standard I'm holding your NRA charge.
I haven't reset anything. You've thrown a new claim into the discussion(more gish gallop), so I asked about it. Even though it was unrelated to your NRA claim.

Suuuuure. No reset, just ignoring the discussion that already happened to ask a question again after examples were given, when your flippant dismissal didn't work.
 
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Perhaps try rereading what I originally posted for comprehension, then. What you did in response was to take a bit of that out of context and challenge it in a rather pointedly out of context way.



Except that I didn't. Separately, though, the circumstantial evidence that the NRA likely did is fairly strong, yes. Not too different from hearing a gunshot and then right afterwards seeing a guy with a gun right next to a corpse that looks like it's been shot. It is, of course, plausible that the guy with the gun did nothing wrong. If the guy with the gun keeps giving answers with wide loopholes to defend himself on investigation and is generally being uncooperative and evasive, that's not at all indicative of innocence, though. If the guy's father steps in to forcefully squelch and suppress investigation into the matter, that's not at all indicative of innocence, either.

That's pretty much the position that we're in with the NRA and potential Russian funneling, after all, which is why your "defense" seems to be pathetically weak.




Suuuuure. No reset, just ignoring the discussion that already happened to ask a question again after examples were given, when your flippant dismissal didn't work.

I'm still waiting for you to post any specific evidence to the charge that Russia funneled money through the NRA. I'm also waiting for a response to this already being looked into by the FBI and Mueller, and why they don't report what you claim. As it is, your claim is dead in the water.
 
Suuuuure. No reset, just ignoring the discussion that already happened to ask a question again after examples were given, when your flippant dismissal didn't work.

A question is not a dismissal. However, refusing to answer a claim with a specific can be dismissed, which is what I did.
 
I'm still waiting for you to post any specific evidence to the charge that Russia funneled money through the NRA. I'm also waiting for a response to this already being looked into by the FBI and Mueller, and why they don't report what you claim. As it is, your claim is dead in the water.

I'm still waiting for you to give evidence that that was my claim. As well as that it's in any way reasonable to call it my claim even after multiple clarifications of the position that don't match the words that you want to put into my mouth.

A question is not a dismissal. However, refusing to answer a claim with a specific can be dismissed, which is what I did.

A refusal to re-answer a question when it was answered and the other party tried to dismiss the answer on inane grounds is not a refusal to answer the question.
 
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There is. I have no problem with saying that it's not proof, though[/COLOR]

"There is"

You claimed there was evidence that the NRA funneled Russian money. Then you gish galloped through a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with Russia funneling money through the NRA. Now you're saying you didn't say there was evidence.
 
Except that I didn't. Separately, though, the circumstantial evidence that the NRA likely did is fairly strong, yes. Not too different from hearing a gunshot and then right afterwards seeing a guy with a gun right next to a corpse that looks like it's been shot. It is, of course, plausible that the guy with the gun did nothing wrong. If the guy with the gun keeps giving answers with wide loopholes to defend himself on investigation and is generally being uncooperative and evasive, that's not at all indicative of innocence, though. If the guy's father steps in to forcefully squelch and suppress investigation into the matter, that's not at all indicative of innocence, either.

You're going to have to try harder since Mueller and the FBI already looked into Russian interference and this in particular. This false equivalence of your's doesn't pass muster. Just for kicks though, who was the father? Mueller? Talk about fringe reset.
 
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"There is"

You claimed there was evidence that the NRA funneled Russian money. Then you gish galloped through a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with Russia funneling money through the NRA. Now you're saying you didn't say there was evidence.

Fundamentally, you're trying to claim that circumstantial evidence isn't evidence, which is a nonsensical argument, especially when there's a fair bit of circumstantial evidence. Regardless, I apologize. I was continuing to focus on your initial attempt to attack what I said at the start on out of context grounds and because your argument hasn't changed since, I continued to treat it as you still attacking what was said initially. It's still pathetically weak, of course, but, I suppose that it's more relevant to later points made than it was in the beginning.

Ummm ok. Now what? Will you gish gallop again, or do you retract the claim that there is evidence Russia funneled money through the NRA?

You still don't know what gish galloping is, I see. "Gish galloping" is not what's been happening. Providing context (and circumstantial evidence) is not gish galloping, after all.

You're going to have to try harder since Mueller and the FBI already looked into Russian interference and this in particular. This false equivalence of your's doesn't pass muster. Just for kicks though, who was the father? Mueller?

Not the brightest bulb, are you?

To address Mueller specifically, Mueller was actually poked at in my original statement, as you might not recall. Mueller using a version of what constitutes campaign finance violations that's been specifically forbidden by Congress and ruled against in a court of law means that trying to invoke Mueller on the subject of campaign finance is laughable, at best. You can keep trying to blindly invoke the FBI, of course, while conveniently ignoring how there's a very good chance that they would have just let Mueller handle that and, well, Barr. Speaking more about Barr would bring us back a bit to the beginning, of course, given Barr's continual actions to try to protect Trump, including how he very quickly ended multiple FBI investigations directly related to Mueller's investigation, though the specifics of what the investigations were have not been made public, to my knowledge.

As for the father, those FEC Republicans rather look like they count, though there's a larger trend within the GOP to oppose or at the very least minimize and defund enforcement of campaign finance regulations (and white collar crime in general), so a credible argument can be made for the Republican Party itself.

Mildly related to that, I'll poke you towards a contextually relevant statement to that from CREW addressing the FEC, again, in the unlikely chance that you have any interest in actually educating yourself. This is general picture context, though, rather than Russia related specifically, since you seem to have incredible difficulty understanding the difference.

We’re Still Waiting on Explanations From the Republican FEC Commissioners
 
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You still don't know what gish galloping is, I see. "Gish galloping" is not what's been happening. Providing context (and circumstantial evidence) is not gish galloping, after all.



Not the brightest bulb, are you?


We’re Still Waiting on Explanations From the Republican FEC Commissioners

You most certainly gish galloped when asked for specific evidence of Russia funneling money through the NRA. Nothing provided had any evidence to show Russia funneling money through the NRA. Yet you pointed to the links and said "here it is." Although the information provided showed no such thing, it just rehashed cases that had already concluded in which any evidence of the claim would have come to light. You are free to wildly speculate about conspiracy theories that aren't based on any fact and call it circumstantial.

Your attack on Mueller with regard to campaign finance would have merit if not for the money laundering aspect that would have had to have taken place. Mueller certainly would have prosecuted that charge if it had merit. Your own links reported that it was being looked into both by Mueller and the FBI. You can fringe reset the issue all you want. It won't change the fact that there is no evidence for the claim that the Russians funneled money through the NRA.

Ad Hominem not responded to.
 
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Yup. Troll. Dishonest quoting, denial of what's been posted, and completely ignoring the context in general.

There is no context, it's speculation about concluded cases, already investigated by the FBI and Mueller. You claiming it's "circumstantial" evidence that Russia funneled money through the NRA is a fantasy, wild speculation, and conspiratorial thinking all wrapped into one.

Ad Hominem not responded to.
 
You most certainly gish galloped when asked for specific evidence of Russia funneling money through the NRA.

Evidence was provided regarding the validity of an FEC investigation and that the Republicans squelched any FEC investigation. Which is in line with what I had originally said on that matter.

Your attack on Mueller with regard to campaign finance would have merit if not for the money laundering aspect that would have had to have taken place. Mueller certainly would have prosecuted that charge if it had merit. Your own links reported that it was being looked into both by Mueller and the FBI.

And Mueller shipped off a bunch of investigations and information off to the FBI when he was ending things, with Barr promptly ending a number of those investigations and generally having quite shown his willingness to interfere on Trump's behalf. Your attempted defense doesn't actually work all that well. It also most certainly doesn't justify the FEC Republican refusal to investigate at the time. Had they properly investigated and found the NRA to be clean, we fairly certainly wouldn't be having this discussion, regardless.

Ad Hominem not responded to.

:rolleyes: Ad hominem? The only negative things that I've stated, like "troll" have been in direct response to you giving more than ample evidence of their truth and making it perfectly clear why you earned said label. It's up to you whether to change your ways to be more honest or not.
 
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Evidence was provided regarding the validity of an FEC investigation and that the Republicans squelched any FEC investigation. Which is in line with what I had originally said on that matter.

"No, you are misunderstanding my question. You claimed "The FEC's been crippled to the point where the Republicans on it literally stopped all FEC investigation into even the NRA's involvement in funneling Russian money into our elections."

I'm interested in this part specifically, "the NRA's involvement in funneling Russian money into our elections." What is the current evidence for this that warrants an investigation? Thanks."

Your response was this link

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/7648...ussia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals

Which part in there is the evidence that Russia funneled money through the NRA for campaigns?
 
And Mueller shipped off a bunch of investigations and information off to the FBI when he was ending things, with Barr promptly ending a number of those investigations and generally having quite shown his willingness to interfere on Trump's behalf. Your attempted defense doesn't actually work all that well. It also most certainly doesn't justify the FEC Republican refusal to investigate at the time. Had they properly investigated and found the NRA to be clean, we fairly certainly wouldn't be having this discussion, regardless.

1. Which investigations did Barr end that Mueller had passed off to the FBI?

2. "Evidence was provided regarding the validity of an FEC investigation and that the Republicans squelched any FEC investigation. Which is in line with what I had originally said on that matter."

The validity of an FEC investigation would stand or fall on any evidence that the Russians funneled money through the NRA. You've yet to post any. None of the links or sources provide any evidence of the claim. If they did you would have surely brought the specific evidence into the discussion. I've seen you point to unrelated cases which were investigated in which no evidence exists for the "Russia funneled money through the NRA."
 
"No, you are misunderstanding my question. You claimed "The FEC's been crippled to the point where the Republicans on it literally stopped all FEC investigation into even the NRA's involvement in funneling Russian money into our elections."

I'm interested in this part specifically, "the NRA's involvement in funneling Russian money into our elections." What is the current evidence for this that warrants an investigation? Thanks."

Alright, because this is getting boring, I'll quote what I just said.

Your attempted defense doesn't actually work all that well. It also most certainly doesn't justify the FEC Republican refusal to investigate at the time. Had they properly investigated and found the NRA to be clean, we fairly certainly wouldn't be having this discussion, regardless.

You asking for the current evidence is not particularly relevant to what you quoted, though it's also true that very little has changed since then, on the direct front. Plenty more has come out that's relevant to being notably more untrusting towards any semblance of honor and honesty in the NRA, though.

Your response was this link

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/7648...ussia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals

Which part in there is the evidence that Russia funneled money through the NRA for campaigns?

And this is why I'm calling you a troll. That was not my response to that question. I'd go so far as to call that a brazen lie, no less.

Here, though, what I said in that post.

Hmm? By the sound of it, you're effectively asking for proof that it did happen, after further investigation into the matter was blocked.

You've already been given links that largely deal with the question that you just asked, after all. Read the FEC statement, for example. More can be added, but more does not need to be added.

Related on the general topic, incidentally, though perhaps not as relevant to your specific question -

NRA Was 'Foreign Asset' To Russia Ahead of 2016, New Senate Report Reveals

Highlighting added, because you seem to want to intentionally and bafflingly lie about what I said. Well, it'd be baffling if you aren't actually a troll, at least.
 
1. Which investigations did Barr end that Mueller had passed off to the FBI?

The specifics were not revealed to the public, as far as I know. Which leaves us in an annoying limbo.

2. "Evidence was provided regarding the validity of an FEC investigation and that the Republicans squelched any FEC investigation. Which is in line with what I had originally said on that matter."

The validity of an FEC investigation would stand or fall on any evidence that the Russians funneled money through the NRA. You've yet to post any. None of the links or sources provide any evidence of the claim. If they did you would have surely brought the specific evidence into the discussion. I've seen you point to unrelated cases which were investigated in which no evidence exists for the "Russia funneled money through the NRA."

From that last CREW link -

The commissioners’ explanation is an important part of the agency’s process. Before the agency can investigate a possible violation of campaign finance law, four members of the Commission—a six-member panel consisting of three Democrats and three Republicans (one of the Democratic slots is currently filled by an independent)—must vote to authorize the investigation. The commissioners vote on recommendations brought to them by the FEC’s Office of General Counsel (“OGC”), the agency’s legal office consisting of nonpartisan staff attorneys who are experts in the field of campaign finance law. The OGC may recommend an investigation based on its conclusion that there is a “reason to believe” a violation may have occurred. This is a low standard under federal law: it simply means the agency believes a violation has been credibly alleged and may have occurred and that the agency wants to take a closer look. It does not mean that a violation has been found. Nor is it the Commission’s final say over the proceeding. After the investigation, the OGC recommends whether to find “probable cause to believe” a person has committed a violation—a higher standard of proof than that imposed at the initial “reason to believe” stage—and the FEC may seek sanctions only if a majority of the Commission agrees with the OGC’s assessment. If three or more commissioners do not agree with either the OGC’s recommendation to investigate or its recommendation to find probable cause based on that investigation, those commissioners must explain their rejection of the staff’s expert opinions.

The standard that you're trying to set seems to be a case of your "common sense" being wrong, as "common sense" is so frequently - and, as the link goes into in more depth, the Republican FEC members have a history of not abiding by the rules to block investigations that have distinctly credible cause, which also is of distinct relevance to the point that I had made.
 
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The specifics were not revealed to the public, as far as I know. Which leaves us in an annoying limbo.



From that last CREW link -



The standard that you're trying to set seems to be a case of your "common sense" being wrong, as "common sense" is so frequently - and, as the link goes into in more depth, the Republican FEC members have a history of not abiding by the rules to block investigations that have distinctly credible cause, which also is of distinct relevance to the point that I had made.

Again, the CREW link means nothing in regard to the claim. There is no evidence for the claim. So the FEC has no valid reason to investigate. I could just as easily say the other side on the FEC want a fishing expedition with no probable cause for the allegation.
 

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