Mueller Investigation pt 7

Aridas said:
I gave an example of a supporting link for it in what you quoted? That [/url] tag in what you quoted is from it.

There's plenty more if you actually look, of course.

With that said, though, what, exactly, are you asking? My statement was that the Republicans blocked investigation into the matter, which they did.

Here, though, is a link directly to an official FEC statement on the matter.
Click to expand...

No, you are misunderstanding my question. You claimed "The FEC's been crippled to the point where the Republicans on it literally stopped all FEC investigation into even the NRA's involvement in funneling Russian money into our elections."

I'm interested in this part specifically, "the NRA's involvement in funneling Russian money into our elections." What is the current evidence for this that warrants an investigation? Thanks.
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
No, you are misunderstanding my question. You claimed "The FEC's been crippled to the point where the Republicans on it literally stopped all FEC investigation into even the NRA's involvement in funneling Russian money into our elections."

I'm interested in this part specifically, "the NRA's involvement in funneling Russian money into our elections." What is the current evidence for this that warrants an investigation? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Hmm? By the sound of it, you're effectively asking for proof that it did happen, after further investigation into the matter was blocked.

You've already been given links that largely deal with the question that you just asked, after all. Read the FEC statement, for example. More can be added, but more does not need to be added.

Related on the general topic, incidentally, though perhaps not as relevant to your specific question -

NRA Was 'Foreign Asset' To Russia Ahead of 2016, New Senate Report Reveals
 
Last edited:
Aridas said:
Hmm? By the sound of it, you're effectively asking for proof that it did happen, after further investigation into the matter was blocked.

You've already been given links that largely deal with the question that you just asked, after all. Read the FEC statement, for example. More can be added, but more does not need to be added.

Related on the general topic, incidentally, though perhaps not as relevant to your specific question -

NRA Was 'Foreign Asset' To Russia Ahead of 2016, New Senate Report Reveals
Click to expand...

So there is no evidence for the claim that the NRA funneled Russian money into our elections? Or there is and you just refuse to post a cite in a discussion forum in the relevant thread? Partisan allegations are a dime a dozen. Your articles cite Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore and "Senate Finance Committee's Democratic staff." Is there any meat to the allegation which would warrant an investigation into Russian money laundering via the NRA?
 
Aridas said:
Well, there's the obvious ones involving Cohen, to start with.

Trump probably won't be charged with campaign finance fraud in office. But that doesn't make him innocent.



To poke further at that via CREW



That enough to start with for you?
Click to expand...

It doesn't amount to anything except allegations. You could argue on precedent that they weren't violations, and I'm sure he would. Trump is no more a felon than mother Theresa at this point, regardless of your characterization of the allegations regarding the Cohen payments.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Wow, have an agenda do you?

Do you not understand exactly what the title means?

What interest in supporting the NRA do you suppose Russia/Russian oligarchs have?
Click to expand...


My agenda is looking for evidence of the allegation that money was given to the NRA by Russia. Unless evidence for this is posted, it's partisan drivel peddled by Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore and "Senate Finance Committee's Democratic staff," and repeated here as fact. I thought this was a skeptics forum? It used to be that pushers of such allegations would be happy to cite the specific evidence for their claims. I know why it's not cited, because it doesn't exist. If this were an allegation about a left leaning organization by some Q-tards, they'd be laughed out of the thread, as they should be. Same applies here.
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
My agenda is looking for evidence of the allegation that money was given to the NRA by Russia. Unless evidence for this is posted, it's partisan drivel peddled by Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore and "Senate Finance Committee's Democratic staff," and repeated here as fact. I thought this was a skeptics forum? It used to be that pushers of such allegations would be happy to cite the specific evidence for their claims. I know why it's not cited, because it doesn't exist. If this were an allegation about a left leaning organization by some Q-tards, they'd be laughed out of the thread, as they should be. Same applies here.
Click to expand...
What's a Q-tard??

You ignored the evidence, hand-waved it away claiming no partisan report can be valid.

What are you looking for, McConnell to admit a lot of the millions the RNC gets from the NRA has been coming from the Russians all along? It's not just Trump that got this money.
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
My agenda is looking for evidence of the allegation that money was given to the NRA by Russia. Unless evidence for this is posted, it's partisan drivel peddled by Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore and "Senate Finance Committee's Democratic staff," and repeated here as fact. I thought this was a skeptics forum? It used to be that pushers of such allegations would be happy to cite the specific evidence for their claims. I know why it's not cited, because it doesn't exist. If this were an allegation about a left leaning organization by some Q-tards, they'd be laughed out of the thread, as they should be. Same applies here.
Click to expand...
Ron Wyden has credibility, people who uncritically repeat things popular in q-anon circles do not.

That's not hypocrisy or a double standard.

A skeptic won't need to ask why.

Dismissing Ron Wyden because of his party affiliation is what is motivated by partisan bias.

TL;DR: project somewhere else.

ETA: You're new here, so heads up "I thought this was a skeptic forum" is some weak tea emotional manipulation ********* that is so overplayed that it will only get you laughed at. Proceed at your own risk.
 
Last edited:
Obviously you, TahiniBinShawarma, are being willfully ignorant here but in case others need a memory refresher:

AJC: Who are the top 10 recipients of NRA money?
In the 2016 election, the NRA spent $11,438,118 to support Donald Trump’s campaign and donated $19,756,346 to groups opposing Hillary Clinton’s. However, the bulk of the contributions have gone to House and Senate members. Here is a look at the top 10 recipients of NRA contributions.
Click to expand...

Snopes: Did the Kremlin Give Money to the National Rifle Association to Help Trump?
A report by McClatchy revealed that the FBI is looking into whether a Russian banker with Kremlin ties funneled money through the NRA during the 2016 election.
Even as the NRA has attacked the American news media with incendiary videos stoking hostility, the news media has been reporting on apparent links between the NRA and the Kremlin — most recently revealing a Federal Bureau of Investigation probe into whether a Kremlin-linked banker used the gun lobby organization to help the Trump campaign.

According to an 18 January 2018 McClatchy D.C. Bureau report, the FBI is investigating allegations that Alexander Torshin, an official at the Central Bank of the Russia and life member of the NRA, funneled money through the gun lobby group to the Trump campaign. The reporting was based on interviews with two unnamed sources familiar with the matter, but who requested their names be withheld because it involves classified and confidential information:
Click to expand...

The Guardian: NRA in crisis: how the gun group became ensnared in the Russia inquiry - The Russia ties of NRA bigwigs are political and legal headaches that won’t go away
For the powerful 5 million-member NRA, the Russia ties of Keene and other NRA bigwigs are political and legal headaches that won’t go away – not with the FBI and congressional panels pursuing lengthy probes into the Kremlin’s alleged scheme to influence the pro-gun giant’s top brass, other conservative groups and US politicians. ...

The links are a complex web as evidenced by two of those at the 2016 convention dinner. Ex-Moscow banker Alexander Torshin, who was sanctioned last year, and his gun rights protege Maria Butina, who in late 2018 pleaded guilty to being a Russian influence agent and is now cooperating with US law enforcement, spent years cozying up to the NRA and some of its leaders. Their goal was to “establish unofficial lines of communication with Americans having power and influence over US politics”, according to Butina’s later plea agreement.
Click to expand...
Remember Butina?

All of this was well documented. The Congressional committee merely gathered the evidence up and presented it in a report.

But then some people aren't the least bit interested in the evidence. Some people have another agenda for joining this forum and this discussion.:rolleyes:
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
What's a Q-tard??

You ignored the evidence, hand-waved it away claiming no partisan report can be valid.

What are you looking for, McConnell to admit a lot of the millions the RNC gets from the NRA has been coming from the Russians all along? It's not just Trump that got this money.
Click to expand...

There is no evidence of Russians funneling money through the NRA for me to hand wave away. Otherwise you would cite it. Your cite does not back up the claim. You've cited a baseless allegation by partisan sources. I'm not looking to McConnell for anything. I'm looking to you to post something, anything, which shows Russia funneled money to the NRA.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Obviously you, TahiniBinShawarma, are being willfully ignorant here but in case others need a memory refresher:

AJC: Who are the top 10 recipients of NRA money?


Snopes: Did the Kremlin Give Money to the National Rifle Association to Help Trump?
A report by McClatchy revealed that the FBI is looking into whether a Russian banker with Kremlin ties funneled money through the NRA during the 2016 election.

The Guardian: NRA in crisis: how the gun group became ensnared in the Russia inquiry - The Russia ties of NRA bigwigs are political and legal headaches that won’t go awayRemember Butina?

All of this was well documented. The Congressional committee merely gathered the evidence up and presented it in a report.

But then some people aren't the least bit interested in the evidence. Some people have another agenda for joining this forum and this discussion.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

None of these cites provide any evidence that Russia funneled money to the NRA. Not one. What you have done is gish galloped a lot of irrelevant unrelated information mixed with unnamed/unsourced allegations and said "see there is the evidence of the NRA laundering Russian money to campaigns." In fact, it shows no such thing.

No one here as shown any credible source for this allegation. We do get,

"FBI counterintelligence investigators have focused on the activities of Alexander Torshin, the deputy governor of Russia’s central bank who is known for his close relationships with both Russian President Vladimir Putin and the NRA, the sources said.

It is illegal to use foreign money to influence federal elections.

It’s unclear how long the Torshin inquiry has been ongoing, but the news comes as Justice Department Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s sweeping investigation of Russian meddling in the 2016 election, including whether the Kremlin colluded with Trump’s campaign, has been heating up."

So this was investigated by Mueller, and yet nothing came of it. Yet the allegation is repeated here as fact. Do you suppose Robert Mueller suppressed this Russian meddling in our election? It was his duty to investigate these allegations, your source claims he was. His investigation was unrestricted. Point me to the section in the Mueller report which contains evidence the the NRA funneled Russian money to campaigns.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Obviously you, TahiniBinShawarma, are being willfully ignorant here but in case others need a memory refresher:

AJC: Who are the top 10 recipients of NRA money?


Snopes: Did the Kremlin Give Money to the National Rifle Association to Help Trump?
A report by McClatchy revealed that the FBI is looking into whether a Russian banker with Kremlin ties funneled money through the NRA during the 2016 election.

The Guardian: NRA in crisis: how the gun group became ensnared in the Russia inquiry - The Russia ties of NRA bigwigs are political and legal headaches that won’t go awayRemember Butina?

All of this was well documented. The Congressional committee merely gathered the evidence up and presented it in a report.

But then some people aren't the least bit interested in the evidence. Some people have another agenda for joining this forum and this discussion.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

FYI, your snopes article cites a McClatchy article by Greg Gordon, the same fellow that gave "Cohen in Prage" and also refers to Glenn Simpson of peepee dossier fame. Color me unimpressed.
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
So there is no evidence for the claim that the NRA funneled Russian money into our elections?
Click to expand...

There is. I have no problem with saying that it's not proof, though, given the lack of sufficient cooperation by the NRA that's in the public eye. However, what you're doing is attacking the point that Republicans of the FEC squelched FEC investigation into the matter completely, refusing to allow even the simplest of verification (calling up the FBI and asking them a very simple question) which they irrefutably did.

TahiniBinShawarma said:
Or there is and you just refuse to post a cite in a discussion forum in the relevant thread?
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

Refuse? So far, you've shown strong indication that you're not engaging honestly, quite frankly.

Still, just for a moment consider the larger picture. Russia has been working to co-opt the NRA for years with some notable success - Maria Butina's conviction serves as ample evidence of that, really. In 2016, while Russia was engaging in massive and unprecedented attempts to interfere with the elections in the anti-Hillary direction, NRA spending surged over $100 million amidst their pro-Trump push. About 30 million of that was directly focused on Trump (about double what was spent on Romney, apparently) and about 21 million of that 30 million alone was from dark money sources. Add to that the NRA's... troubles with corruption, to put it nicely, and their rather evasive answers (no big donations from Russian addresses doesn't actually mean much when using shell corporations with an address in the appropriate country as an intermediary is one of standard and obvious measures to move money in the dark) and the stage is set extremely suspiciously. When the Republican party blocks investigation into huge amounts of suspicious money that went overwhelmingly into supporting and getting Republicans elected, that's a huge red flag as well.

TahiniBinShawarma said:
It doesn't amount to anything except allegations. You could argue on precedent that they weren't violations, and I'm sure he would. Trump is no more a felon than mother Theresa at this point, regardless of your characterization of the allegations regarding the Cohen payments.
Click to expand...

Government refuses to charge Trump based on an OLC memo crafted to achieve a specific political end with Nixon and that achieved that objective. Because they refuse to charge Trump, the observations about laws being broken to the point of earning felonies in normal and fair circumstances are therefore specious. :rolleyes: This logic, how could it possibly be unconvincing?
 
Last edited:
Aridas;[LIST=1 said:
[*]13139862]There is. I have no problem with saying that it's not proof
[/LIST][/COLOR]
Click to expand...


I didn't ask for proof. I asked for any evidence of Russia funneling money through the NRA to campaigns. You and others have provided zero evidence. You've gish galloped all the way pointing to evidence that says nothing about Russia funneling money through the NRA.
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
I didn't ask for proof. I asked for any evidence of Russia funneling money through the NRA to campaigns. You and others have provided zero evidence. You've gish galloped all the way pointing to evidence that says nothing about Russia funneling money through the NRA.
Click to expand...

And in doing so, seem to be doing your best to to ignore the point I actually made.
 
Aridas said:
Government refuses to charge Trump based on an OLC memo crafted to achieve a specific political end with Nixon and that achieved that objective. Because they refuse to charge Trump, the observations about laws being broken to the point of earning felonies in normal and fair circumstances are therefore specious. :rolleyes: This logic, how could it possibly be unconvincing?
Click to expand...


Which crime do you think Trump should have been charged with if not for the OLC memo?
 
Aridas said:
And in doing so, seem to be doing your best to to ignore the point I actually made.
Click to expand...

Your point is that without any evidence that Russia funneled money through the NRA there should be an investigation because you and some democrats suspect it. It's not a very good point. Mueller would have ripped the NRA a new one if he had found evidence of this. He didn't, and he and the FBI looked.
 
TahiniBinShawarma said:
Your point is that without any evidence that Russia funneled money through the NRA there should be an investigation because you and some democrats suspect it. It's not a very good point. Mueller would have ripped the NRA a new one if he had found evidence of this. He didn't, and he and the FBI looked.
Click to expand...

No, that wasn't my point. As has been made perfectly clear repeatedly. Nice try at the spin, though.

TahiniBinShawarma said:
Which crime do you think Trump should have been charged with if not for the OLC memo?
Click to expand...

Alright. I'll take that as strong confirmation that you're a troll, if you're working to reset the discussion that quickly.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom