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Drawing flak. Must be over the target. The Mueller investigation was an extension of the spying surveillance operation against the Trump campaign ordered by the Obama DOJ. Andrew McCarthy at National Review puts it better than I ever could.

National Review
I think I see the problem.

Before I click on your link cmikes, lets check on the reliability of the National Review

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/national-review/

RIGHT BIAS
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. See all Right Bias sources.

Overall, we rate the National Review Right Biased based on story selection that always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to misleading claims and occasional use of poor sources.​

I tend to ignore sources that are not "purple", so I guess I won't be bothering to read this tripe.
 
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The investigation started when a Trump adviser got drunk and blabbed about all the crimes they were doing.
 
Why does this matter? Are you suggesting Trump was framed. Or are you going with a 4th Amendment technicality, "illegal search and seizure"?

If Joseph Mifsud is a western intelligence asset, then Mifsud was used to play the part of a "Russian agent" to give our FBI, CIA, NSA a pre-text to spy on the Trump campaign and launch a "collusion" investigation. This would be a criminal conspiracy of the highest order and a huge violation of our Constitutional rights. Yet the police state liberals who inhabit these forums don't seem the slightest bit bothered by any of this. Their hatred for Trump is all consuming.

p.s. But it wasn't just Joseph Mifsud, Papadopoulos had a huge number of deep state goons run against him, Joseph Mifsud, Stefan Halper, Charles Tawil, Azra Turk, Sergei Millian.

Heh. Not necessarily. Going beyond that, much of the social media stuff was pointedly targeted at specific groups that were viewed as easily influenced, while the articles you pointed at very much weren't. Also, there was a heck of a lot more social media manipulation than just the Facebook ads.

...You're really pushing the disinformation angle, despite most of it having been backed up on investigation.

Is it your intent to play the part of a fool? The post that you were responding to lists several substantial points that you seem intent on ignoring. That's before getting to further discussion.

Emptily asserting that it's disinformation, despite the evidence to the contrary, isn't particularly convincing.

Who is protecting him, exactly?

You can't complain about on-line disinformation campaigns when you support the biggest disinformation campaign of all, Trump-Russia collusion. In the 2018 elections some 70% of Democrats believed that Trump had colluded with Russia. Yet with so many Americans voting based on false beliefs, the police state liberals don't seemed bothered at all. In fact, they encourage false beliefs against people they hate, like Trump.

So what false beliefs did Americans come to widely accept due these other disinformation campaigns?

p.s. Apparently, Joseph Mifsud is hiding out in Italy somewhere, living in an apartment owned by Link University. If Joseph Mifsud really is a Russian agent who "attacked our democracy" why isn't he given the Julian Assange treatment? Mifsud was interviewed by the FBI in February 2017 and let go. They don't seem the slightest bit concerned that a "Russian agent" was able to infiltrate deep into the western intelligence apparatus.

The evidence is clear, and multiple intelligence agencies in the US and abroad, whose job it is to discover these things, have agreed: Russia has attempted to interfere with the 2016 US presidential elections. To what extent they succeeded is debatable, but that's not what we're discussing.

This evidence is not clear and you should trust our intelligence agencies in the same way you trust the shepherd boy in Aesop's fable.

I will accept for the sake of argument and for the time being, that Russia threatens the US in all the ways the conventional wisdom says it does.

Now, I have a question for you: *if* Russia is a threat to the US, would this change your opinion about the wisdom of countering a foreign adversary's surreptitious efforts to influence one of our elections?

What does the conventional wisdom say about how Russia threatens us? I just keep hearing the same phrase over and over "hostile foreign power, hostile foreign power, hostile foreign power." We seem to threaten Russia, more than Russia threatens us.

It is likely that many countries attempt to influence our elections either openly or in the shadows. Certainly the US interferes in countries around the world and it is always viewed as a good thing. You would need to give an example of what these "surreptitious efforts" might be.
 
If Joseph Mifsud is a western intelligence asset, then Mifsud was used to play the part of a "Russian agent" to give our FBI, CIA, NSA a pre-text to spy on the Trump campaign and launch a "collusion" investigation. This would be a criminal conspiracy of the highest order and a huge violation of our Constitutional rights. Yet the police state liberals who inhabit these forums don't seem the slightest bit bothered by any of this. Their hatred for Trump is all consuming.

p.s. But it wasn't just Joseph Mifsud, Papadopoulos had a huge number of deep state goons run against him, Joseph Mifsud, Stefan Halper, Charles Tawil, Azra Turk, Sergei Millian.

....
So you're going with entrapment?

:dl:
 
tanabear, you haven't answered the question yet:

was Trump framed, or is he a criminal, but nothing Mueller found can be used due to "the Fruit of the poisonous Tree" ?
 
I didn't make any claim as to why he refused to do so, so how is it possible for a stated motive to contradict a position that doesn't depend upon motive?

Again, your line of argument just doesn't work, in light of that quote. It's as simple as that. You were depending on the fact that Mueller refused to say guilty while ignoring exactly why he stated that he was refusing to try to push a separate argument.

But if you want to get into it, his stated motive is transparently bull ****. The exact thing he claims he wanted to avoid is the exact thing he actually achieved: making a party look guilty without offering them a formal process to defend themselves.

:rolleyes:

You can't complain about on-line disinformation campaigns when you support the biggest disinformation campaign of all, Trump-Russia collusion.

:rolleyes:

In the 2018 elections some 70% of Democrats believed that Trump had colluded with Russia.

Sounds about right, given how Trump managed to make himself look guilty as heck of that, both before and after the elections. Well, more specifically, of Russia using him, whether as an asset or as a useful idiot. Again, the Mueller report makes it pretty overwhelmingly clear that having strong concerns about Trump's relationship with Russia was an absolutely correct position to hold. Seriously, Trump gave the Russian government ways to blackmail him on a silver platter. Mueller may have deemed that there were no criminal conspiracy charges that he could bring (and certainly not against the President, regardless), but there was certainly what's normally referred to as collusion.

Yet with so many Americans voting based on false beliefs, the police state liberals don't seemed bothered at all. In fact, they encourage false beliefs against people they hate, like Trump.

Mmm. You should probably be more self-aware of how you're projecting your faults on others.

So what false beliefs did Americans come to widely accept due these other disinformation campaigns?

How, exactly, do you think that the social media manipulation campaigns actually worked? Your questions seem to give away that you have no idea, but feel free to demonstrate me wrong.

p.s. Apparently, Joseph Mifsud is hiding out in Italy somewhere, living in an apartment owned by Link University.

That's quite recent news, but sure. He's apparently been moving around fairly frequently, either way.

If Joseph Mifsud really is a Russian agent who "attacked our democracy" why isn't he given the Julian Assange treatment?

The Julian Assange treatment that was being given for reasons notably different?

Mifsud was interviewed by the FBI in February 2017 and let go. They don't seem the slightest bit concerned that a "Russian agent" was able to infiltrate deep into the western intelligence apparatus.

The biggest way that you're wrong here is that we have no reason to believe that he infiltrated the western intelligence apparatus at all, let alone deeply.
 
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This evidence is not clear and you should trust our intelligence agencies in the same way you trust the shepherd boy in Aesop's fable.

What a nice, vacuous soundbite.

Have you read the report? Have you sought out information about this issue? Not from Russian or Trumpist sources, I mean. It's absolutely clear that the Russians attempted to influence the elections, not just online, but through contacts within the Trump admin.

As for intelligence agencies, if it were just one, sure. But it's all of them, and they have evidence to back up their claims. What's your basis for dismissing them, other than them giving you a conclusion you disagree with?

What's your basis for any of your claims other than rank ignorance?
 
What a nice, vacuous soundbite.

Have you read the report? Have you sought out information about this issue? Not from Russian or Trumpist sources, I mean. It's absolutely clear that the Russians attempted to influence the elections, not just online, but through contacts within the Trump admin.

As for intelligence agencies, if it were just one, sure. But it's all of them, and they have evidence to back up their claims. What's your basis for dismissing them, other than them giving you a conclusion you disagree with?

What's your basis for any of your claims other than rank ignorance?

I have no way of knowing if they have evidence to back up their claim. They are not providing it.
 
What does the conventional wisdom say about how Russia threatens us?

The Independent: "US and Russia closer to open conflict than any time since Cold War". But the adversarial relationship between the US and Russia here, as it really deserves its own thread.

You didn't answer my previous question: "*if* Russia is a threat to the US, would this change your opinion about the wisdom of countering a foreign adversary's surreptitious efforts to influence one of our elections?"

We seem to threaten Russia, more than Russia threatens us.
That is exactly how conflicts look to those in the conflict.

You would need to give an example of what these "surreptitious efforts" might be.
I seem to recall someone in government prepared a paper outlining those surrepititous efforts, but I can't remember the name. Schmucker? Schmullmeister? Schmeuller? It was something like that. I'll see if I can't dig it up.
 
Pretty much all we need to know about the judgment and grasp of world affairs this particular trol– person has.

I'm honestly (no sarcasm) confused. Is it your position that the claim "Certainly the US interferes in countries around the world and it is always viewed as a good thing" is untrue, or just that it's irrelevant to the topic at hand? (I think it's obviously true, but also irrelevant to what we're discussing.)
 
If Joseph Mifsud is a western intelligence asset, then Mifsud was used to play the part of a "Russian agent" to give our FBI, CIA, NSA a pre-text to spy on the Trump campaign and launch a "collusion" investigation. This would be a criminal conspiracy of the highest order and a huge violation of our Constitutional rights. Yet the police state liberals who inhabit these forums don't seem the slightest bit bothered by any of this. Their hatred for Trump is all consuming.

p.s. But it wasn't just Joseph Mifsud, Papadopoulos had a huge number of deep state goons run against him, Joseph Mifsud, Stefan Halper, Charles Tawil, Azra Turk, Sergei Millian.


You can't complain about on-line disinformation campaigns when you support the biggest disinformation campaign of all, Trump-Russia collusion. In the 2018 elections some 70% of Democrats believed that Trump had colluded with Russia. Yet with so many Americans voting based on false beliefs, the police state liberals don't seemed bothered at all. In fact, they encourage false beliefs against people they hate, like Trump.

So what false beliefs did Americans come to widely accept due these other disinformation campaigns?

p.s. Apparently, Joseph Mifsud is hiding out in Italy somewhere, living in an apartment owned by Link University. If Joseph Mifsud really is a Russian agent who "attacked our democracy" why isn't he given the Julian Assange treatment? Mifsud was interviewed by the FBI in February 2017 and let go. They don't seem the slightest bit concerned that a "Russian agent" was able to infiltrate deep into the western intelligence apparatus.


This evidence is not clear and you should trust our intelligence agencies in the same way you trust the shepherd boy in Aesop's fable.


What does the conventional wisdom say about how Russia threatens us? I just keep hearing the same phrase over and over "hostile foreign power, hostile foreign power, hostile foreign power." We seem to threaten Russia, more than Russia threatens us.

It is likely that many countries attempt to influence our elections either openly or in the shadows. Certainly the US interferes in countries around the world and it is always viewed as a good thing. You would need to give an example of what these "surreptitious efforts" might be.
Stopped reading right there.
 
What a nice, vacuous soundbite.

Have you read the report? Have you sought out information about this issue? Not from Russian or Trumpist sources, I mean. It's absolutely clear that the Russians attempted to influence the elections, not just online, but through contacts within the Trump admin.

As for intelligence agencies, if it were just one, sure. But it's all of them, and they have evidence to back up their claims. What's your basis for dismissing them, other than them giving you a conclusion you disagree with?

What's your basis for any of your claims other than rank ignorance?
Seems to be the typical layered CT. They have conspiracy theories to protect their conspiracy theories, anyone and anything proving them wrong become part of the conspiracy.

It's interesting, though, how much they love being contrarians. The Russia story has all the ingredients they love: corrupt leaders, a cabal of unscrupolous officials, money and greed, shady international dealings, and democracy at risk.

But of course, it ain't no fun to believe what everyone ekse already belieces, so of course when they finally encounter a real conspiracy, they make up a CT that there is no conspiracy.

That, and provably that in their simple lack-and-white world, they probably consider Trump an ally, to be protected.

Eta: also, maybe this topic is too boring to attract them. No grainy footage of explosions to misinterpret, no deaths, no crashes, just hundreds of pages of facts.
 
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