Mrs. Piper Mediumship Discussion

[Interesting Ian]

That seems like a lot of work. A much easier way (and harder to notice) is the old trick of being out of sync with the envelopes you're opening. In other words, the first envelope you open has the information that you are going to pretend came from the second envelope and so on.
[/B]

This sounds like a card trick I used to do from about the age of 9. Surreptitiously look at the bottom card of the deck. Let's say it was the 5 of diamonds. Spread the deck out on the table, shuffling the cards around, but always taking note of where the 5 of diamonds is. Ask someone what card they think is the 5 of diamonds, and ask them to pick it up, but without them looking at it and pass it over to you, and you look at it.

Say they picked the 7 of spades. Then ask them to pick what they think is the 7 of spades. Say they pick the king of clubs (but they don't look at it and pass straight to you). Then you declare that now you're going to have a go and try and guess which card is the king of clubs, and pick up the 5 of diamonds! The result is you have all 3 cards in your hand!

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Clancie, I can see why you are so easily deceived. You look but do not see. You read, but you do not understand. The reason for offering that particular solution is because it best fits the actions described. There was only ONE envelop, and what was divined was at the begining and the end of the letter. This fits the pattern of using a volatile substance. It is not alot of trouble particularly by a woman at that time that were fond of carrying kerchief in their hands at all times, this would make things easy to conceal. The are many ways of reading a single unopen envelope, just get a hold of some of the books I recommended in previous posts and you will be better informed.

As soon as we find one that can be proven as genuine, I will recommend her to everyone.

A very perceptive reply, magicflute.

Mrs Piper had folk bamboozled. Confusion and noise often achieved this at séances. She seems to have used more subtle forms of misdirection. The window that she insisted was kept open for 'strength' (air) may well have been to supply bright light to see through paper. Why does she need to get hold of the paper and hold it to her head? 'Glimpesing' would also produce the results she gave from this letter reading.

The investigators are stupid enough to be misdirected by 'the controls'. They start to believe in Phinuit and telepathy, and therefore just about anything Mrs Piper describes (even if they know the info IS known to her) becomes revelation because it is coming 'from the control'.

In this light, the Sutton reading (the little girl Kackie I think it was) is a particularly cynical and cruel deception. I'm coming to dislike Mrs Piper the more I read about her. There is nothing funny or quaint about this. It is a sick deception of necromancy. And I'm becoming more annoyed with Clancie's supercilious tone earlier in the thread. An accusation of fraud is a serious matter, she says. Does she think Mrs Piper is going to 'punish' me from beyond the grave? I already wear a tinfoil hat at night in bed -- so no need for me to worry about a psychic attack.

Are the 'brujos' the women who use the 'blood in the egg yolk' trick to get credulous folk to hand over lots of money? If so, I've heard of them. I hope you continue to expose this stuff wherever you find it, my friend. It is fraud, pure and simple, and these people prey on the most vulnerable, grieving members of society.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Claus,

I know Mr Randi does not like conjuring tricks to be exposed here. Many people make a living this way as entertainers without claiming any paranormal powers. (BTW I just found out how to do the card trick he demonstrated at the end of the Ultimate Psychic Challenge -- it is ingenious!)

But *some* methods used by stage mentalists are also used by psychic mediums. Should these be exposed?

I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Clancie said: I just disagree if you feel that, because we know that -some- mediums are fraudulent, therefore we know that -all- of them are.

But, Clancie, I thought you were claiming that Mrs Piper was 'the one white crow'? You seemed to want to defend her rather vehemently. Have you found your one white crow, or are you still looking? That is really the substance of TLN's question that started the other thread that was split to here.

Have you changed your mind about Mrs Piper?

 

[The Mighty Thor]

quote:
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Posted by Kopji

Before he joined the psychic investigations he was a follower of and taught the philosophy of Herbert Spencer. Spencer was an advocate of Social Darwinism, and actual coiner of the term 'survival of the fittest'. This is a fairly stark philosophy.
IMHO Hodgson was quite capable of promoting a hoax just for a private joke on humanity.
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Clancie said: Wow, Kopji, With all due respect I don't see how being Spencerian and believing in Social Darwinism would make one likely to perpetrate a hoax and turn your whole career around to become someone knowingly promoting fraud. (Didn't he still like Spencer's ideas at the time he exposed Mme. Blavatsky as a fraud? Sorry, but this idea doesn't make any sense to me at all).

Clancie, with all due respect, you really just don't 'get it', do you?

Can't you see any connection here?

 

[Garrette]

malcolmdl:

Plausible means?

Gossip -- husband, daughters, servants, friends in the 'psychic circles' of the times, overheard conversations of servants who were 'invisible' to the upper/middle classes of this time. (People discuss the strangest, most personal things in front of bartenders even nowadays -- I can attest to this)

Paid Informants. (Mrs Piper earned a living at this game -- plenty to go around, I think) Servants could easily be employed for "a small consideration, Ma'am".

Newspapers -- "hatches, matches and dispatchies". Local newspapers also report on things like deaths from accidents.

Register of Births, Deaths and Marriages.

Local Biographical Encyclopedias that contained a wealth of information.

The "Who's Who", if these existed then. Or maybe the "Woos Woo"

Compromised post -- getting a hold of mail send to and by folk like James, Lodge, and Hodgson before they got it, opening and resealing, then having it delivered as unopened. 'Reading through the envelope' is easy, too. Here is a method that would 'reveal' some of the supposedly annonymous sitters. I assume most were contacted and made appointments by letter. There was usually only one or two new sitters per day. So, if Mrs Piper knows that Sir Oliver Lodge has made an appointment for Mr X on Thursday, 14 Dec. 1894, she knows who Mr X is and has time to research. The postboy or even postmaster could be involved. Remember that in the past telephone exchange girls were often guilty of 'listening in'.

Overhearing via the plumbing, by holding a glass to wall or floor or by 'cowans and eavesdroppers' outside windows -- not as silly as at first these methods might seem.

The 'psychic blue book system'.

Her own Private Investigators.

Sneaking about in the homes she was in, by her or a confederate. Even locked doors and cabinets can be opened, after all.

Collusion with investigators, witting or unwitting. They, too, made money from the Piper 'franchise.' People were paid, books were published, lectures given, etc. Hodgson was sent to America -- not a bad little number for him IMO.

Mrs Piper did fish for info -- all the investigators admit this. So, a mixture of cold/hot reading gives varied performances which is just what we would expect. She is 'fluent' when she has the info she needs, and fishes when stumped.

A mixture of all or some of the above.

I'm sure there are other explanations that don't involve the paranormal.

On the pre-reading of the mail, the following is most suspicious:

Excellent, malcolm. And it demonstrates why I insist that we stop using the false dichotomy of "actual mediumship or cold reading."

There are many ways to cheat. Cold reading is one of them. Malcolm has listed some great examples of others.

 

[CFLarsen]

Claus,

I know Mr Randi does not like conjuring tricks to be exposed here. Many people make a living this way as entertainers without claiming any paranormal powers. (BTW I just found out how to do the card trick he demonstrated at the end of the Ultimate Psychic Challenge -- it is ingenious!)

But *some* methods used by stage mentalists are also used by psychic mediums. Should these be exposed?

I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on this.

And I will reply to you in the upcoming newsletter from SkepticReport. It is a subject worthy of one.

(Sign up at www.skepticreport.com)

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Excellent, malcolm. And it demonstrates why I insist that we stop using the false dichotomy of "actual mediumship or cold reading."

There are many ways to cheat. Cold reading is one of them. Malcolm has listed some great examples of others.

Thanks Garrette.

I'm beginning to think that the Spiritist Movement really was wittingly manipulated by some of the major players. There is just no way that *some* who were involved could not have known the cons and deceptions. Others were simply 'hoodwinked'.

It just goes to show that the 'need to believe' will over-ride common sense, even when the original perps (in this case, the Fox sisters) own up to fraud.

In many ways, I hate to try disabuse people of their erroneous beliefs, but I know that a lot of damage can be done by these charlatans. People have given their life savings to phoney psychics and healers, usually at a time when they are at their most vulnerable.

What is more amazing is that people like John Edward and Colin Fry make a fortune out of this and seem to put a lot less time and effort into 'the effect' than the likes of Mrs Piper. She must have been very charming and disarming in her attitude, and although she was selling lies, I don't necessarily think she would have thought she was 'doing harm'. She seems to have looked upon it as 'thirty years service to science.'

It is notable, too, that 'Summerland' seems to have been a very white, upper-class, Anglo-Saxon kind of place -- like a posh spa for the dead who 'deserved' special treatment.

I suppose, after the Great War, and the horrors of the trenches, it was some comfort to those who lost loved ones. But if the human race keeps on thinking there are otherworldly rewards in whatever Paradise, martyrdom cults could ultimately destroy us all. Suicidal folk with nukes are a frightening prospect, and it all stems from this propensity toward magical thinking and lack of respect for this life.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

And I will reply to you in the upcoming newsletter from SkepticReport. It is a subject worthy of one.

(Sign up at www.skepticreport.com)

I look forward to reading it and to hearing what others think on the matter, too. Most of the techniques have been reported in books, but, as you will be aware, you have to know where to look.

 

[magicflute]

Malcolmdl,
The response to your question about the "brujo" is that the term can be translated as "witch" or "warlock". It refers to anyone using witchcraft or black magic to do good or bad. You have "Santeria", "Palo Mayombe" , "Candomble", "Vudu" at al. The latest epidemic is from scum that you often see on TV commercial in the Latin stations offering their services. These bloodsuckers attribute ANYTHING wrong in your life as a 'maleficio" or spell. They offer to help you get rid of the spell for a fee or course. The big problem is once they get their hooks on you they wont let go. There are some that still do the blood in the egg trick. The last 'case' of this type I helped on was a variation. Human hair in the egg. I am planning expose some of these frauds publicly as soon as my schedule permits since this is bound to be a long term project. I would like to use hidden audio and video. Perhaps I will talk to Randi to get some advice, since he has had vast experience with public exposure. Until now I have been involved on a one to one basis mostly. Maybe I can get one of the Latin stations to do a piece on the results, but I am not too hopeful. Since I often see Walter Mercado spewing his brand of horoscope nonsense on their station, and even during news broadcasts!!! It's a very uphill battle.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Malcolmdl,
The response to your question about the "brujo" is that the term can be translated as "witch" or "warlock". It refers to anyone using witchcraft or black magic to do good or bad. You have "Santeria", "Palo Mayombe" , "Candomble", "Vudu" at al. The latest epidemic is from scum that you often see on TV commercial in the Latin stations offering their services. These bloodsuckers attribute ANYTHING wrong in your life as a 'maleficio" or spell. They offer to help you get rid of the spell for a fee or course. The big problem is once they get their hooks on you they wont let go. There are some that still do the blood in the egg trick. The last 'case' of this type I helped on was a variation. Human hair in the egg. I am planning expose some of these frauds publicly as soon as my schedule permits since this is bound to be a long term project. I would like to use hidden audio and video. Perhaps I will talk to Randi to get some advice, since he has had vast experience with public exposure. Until now I have been involved on a one to one basis mostly. Maybe I can get one of the Latin stations to do a piece on the results, but I am not too hopeful. Since I often see Walter Mercado spewing his brand of horoscope nonsense on their station, and even during news broadcasts!!! It's a very uphill battle.

All I can say is: "Watch your back!"

 

[Mike D.]

civer56,

I am bumping up this thread from long ago for you, since you recommended that people look into Mrs. Piper. As you can see, she has been discussed here at JREF before. I recommend starting at the beginning of the thread and reading through it, if you feel you'd find it interesting.