Mrs. Piper Mediumship Discussion

Interesting Ian said:
NoZed Avenger

You and others are not required to prove Mrs Piper was a fraud. You just have to give some plausible means whereby Mrs Piper could have obtained the information.

What information, exactly?


My understanding is that cold reading is extremely implausible.


How did you make that determination? While we're here, I may as well ask what you mean by "implausible" -- do you mean you have ruled it out, or is it still a possible explanation for some/all of the information you speak of, above?


So how could Mrs Piper have gotten this information? Do you understand you have to supply some sort of answer here??

We obviously disagree on who has the burden to show that Ms. Piper had extraordinary powers. There are near-countless methods of obtaining information about persons, but since all of them have been dead quite some time, it is rather difficult to do a thorough investigation. Gardner has suggested some problems, but, again, I (1) have not had the opportunity to look at the source documents, (2) do not know if they could answer these types of questions, anyway, and (3) have no real desire to do voluminous homework on a 120 year old subject that no one will pay attention to, anyway.

As pointed out above.

N/A
 
To NoZed Avenger,


One cannot prove that some anomalous cognition is going on. This is the same for any experiment purporting to show anomalous mental phenomena. All one can do is to ensure as far as is humanly possible that no cheating is taking place. Such measures were implemented with Mrs Piper, and no evidence, so far as I am aware, has ever surfaced to suggest she was cheating in some manner.

So to go back to what I said. I said:

II

So how could Mrs Piper have gotten this information? Do you understand you have to supply some sort of answer here??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NoZed Avenger

We obviously disagree on who has the burden to show that Ms. Piper had extraordinary powers.

The evidence is there. If you are interested go and read it. There's nothing else to be said until skeptics suggest some way she might have cheated.

There are near-countless methods of obtaining information about persons, but since all of them have been dead quite some time, it is rather difficult to do a thorough investigation. Gardner has suggested some problems, but, again, I (1) have not had the opportunity to look at the source documents, (2) do not know if they could answer these types of questions, anyway, and (3) have no real desire to do voluminous homework on a 120 year old subject that no one will pay attention to, anyway.

Then_what_are_you_doing_in_this_thread??
 
Interesting Ian said:
To NoZed Avenger,


One cannot prove that some anomalous cognition is going on. This is the same for any experiment purporting to show anomalous mental phenomena. All one can do is to ensure as far as is humanly possible that no cheating is taking place. Such measures were implemented with Mrs Piper, and no evidence, so far as I am aware, has ever surfaced to suggest she was cheating in some manner.


"Such measures" ?

What measures?

And again - what information, precisely?


So to go back to what I said. I said:

The evidence is there. If you are interested go and read it. There's nothing else to be said until skeptics suggest some way she might have cheated.

As I said -- at least twice now -- the "evidence" (if by evidence you mean the actual transcripts or specific descriptions of controls) is -not- available to me.


Then_what_are_you_doing_in_this_thread??

Wasting my time, apparently.

N/A
 
I assumed that Ian and Clancie had read

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/lodge/survival/contents.htm

It is part of the thread.

The chapters on Mrs Piper move between reports by William James, Lodge's own reports, and his reports on Hodgson's reports, which make it just about as confusing as this sentence. It gets worse when 'Hodgson' dies and becomes a 'control'.

I see now that it was Sir Oliver Lodge who was intimately involved with the Pipers:

"Coming to ordinary social details: it is not an impertinence, but is justified by the special circumstances of the case, to state that the family is an admirable one, and that we regard them as genuine friends."

Mrs Piper seems to have had a disarming effect on skeptiks. She seems to have 'worn them down' with her charm. The Pipers were invited to do sittings at Christmas, for example -- usually a very personal time for families.

Sir Oliver Lodge believed in telepathy, and that is what he seems to be arguing for in the Mrs Piper case. It seems that his wife believed herself to be a psychic medium. He sought out, and believed that he had received messages from his dead son Raymond.

From what I can make out Hodgson devoted nineteen years of his life to investigating Mrs Piper. he may not have become 'intimate friends with the family', but given the circumstances, I doubt this, but will concede to Ian's information.

Perhaps Ian could tell us what his source says that indicates that Piper and Hodgson did not become friends.

Neither James nor Sir Oliver Lodge were skeptics by today's standards. Hodgson certainly seems to have started out with a healthy skeptical approach, but became 'worn down' by Mrs Piper. These three investigators all had vested interests in the SPR.

As has been pointed out, Mrs Piper was like a franchise of the Society. I hate spiders, but I reckon if I studied them closely for 20 years, I'd get to like them -- or at least respect them.
:)

I say that the controls put in place were lessened because I assume that Hodgson did not have PI's on her and her husband's tails for the full period of investigation. Neither do I believe her mail would be checked all the time. What happened was that Hodgson 'ruled out' certain possibilities, and stopped checking for these as time went on.

Any competent magician will tell you that there is nothing more convincing to a subject as when the subject knows one technique for a trick and the magician then uses another technique to receive the desired effect. Magicians fool other magicians all the time. You can't just rule things out and then never check them again. For example:

"The introduction of a stranger now makes things slow and laborious, and is on the whole discouraged; for although the old characteristics continue to some extent, the tests now given are mainly of a different kind. The early procedure was useful at the beginning, and it continued useful for a good many years till a case for investigation was firmly established; but it must have seemed tedious to prolong that method further, so the group of controls associated with Rector assured Dr. Hodgson that they would take the trance in hand and develop it on better and higher lines."

What Mrs Piper is 'producing' can come from so many sources that if she is 'mixing techniques' it would be beyond the resources of an investigator to check for all of them, all of the time in the circumstances under which Mrs Piper was being tested.

The investigators believe that they are in control of the sittings and say so. Then we have:

"The following illustrates the care taken of the physical conditions and the way they are spoken of it is an extract from a sitting held by Mr. Dorr at Boston in 1906
(Rector interrupting a "Hodgson" communication.) Friend, you will have to change the conditions a moment.
[At the beginning of the sitting only one of the two windows in the room was open a very little way. A few moments previous to this time H. J. Jr. noticing that the room was a little close had opened the other window, and G. B. D. had nearly closed it again.]
G. B. D. What is wrong with the conditions? Do you want more air or less?
Well, there will have to be a change in the surroundings, there will have to be more strength, what is it, air, yes, air. And a good deal more just now. Hodgson takes a good deal of strength when he comes, but he is all right, he understands the methods of operation very well (The window was now opened wide). That is better. Now the light begins to get clear. All right, friend."

Clearly, the psychic is in control here, not the investigators.

I would be suspicious as to what was going on a that window.

Was the mail always checked -- not just Mrs Piper's {important this}

Where were the daughters during the sittings? (Supposedly at their needlework -- but were they under surveillance all the time?)

There are so many questions I would need answered and so many alternative theories about how this all could have been done that I am surprised that Clancie and Ian can't think of any other ways that Mrs Piper could have come by the information other than by supernatural means.

It was a spectacular piece of cheek on Mrs Piper's part to recruit Hodgson as a 'spirit control'.

Had I been his spirit, the first thing I would have asked is:

"Why the &^*% did you tell me I'd live a long happy life and have children. Why didn't you tell me I was going to die so soon you *darned* fraud. Oh, but you can't be if I'm talking to you now -- oh, this is confusing -- where is Myers? Groan."
 
Here's my theory:

Mrs Piper's spirit controls were actually time travellers. They could look at Clancie and Ian's computer screens to see what we are typing about them. Similarly, they found out all the information that they conveyed to Mrs Piper from Cosmic Google, the search engine for the Cosmic Internet and the IDW (Inter Dimensional Web). This stuff will all be invented in the future, but Phinuit et al. have access to it, them being time travellers.

The reason Mrs Piper's messages were often garbled and incoherent was because of imperfections in the Universal and Extradimensional Babelfish which is as erroneous in translation as the beast's initial concept in our time. viz.

Piper, Leonore Evelina Simonds

Important American medium.

Mrs. Piper probably is at most examined ASW medium in the history of the Parapsychologie - nevertheless you were never proven a fraud.

The work extended over one period of nearly 3 decades and fills in the Proceedings of the S.P.R. (Society OF Psychical Research) over 3000 sides.

Their most important examiners were bar-saved, Hodgson, Hyslop, James, Lodge, Murphy, Myers, Newbold and Sidgwick.

Even if Mrs. Piper were the only medium in the world, then that would be sufficient, in order to justify the Kryptaesthesie scientifically.

The first paranormale experience is to have had it with 8 years (to log out an aunt), it followed first only few experiences. With 22 she married and with 25 used substantial Trancen.

Until 1911 Mrs. Piper showed day for day probably telepathisch received information.

1885 participated William James in a meeting and were, although first sceptically, soon of the extraordinary one of the achievements convinces.

1887 assigned the S. P. R. (Society OF Psychical Research) Hodgson the investigation of the phenomena. Hodgson dedicated itself the following 19 years of its life to this task.

2 years long Mrs. Piper was checked to a not identifiable French physician, whom replaced 1892 George Pelham by the Trancepersoenlichkeit Dr. Phinuit, which formed from there on exclusive control.

Hodgson determined its identity with George Pelham, a deceased lawyer and writer, whom he had introduced still during lifetimes under an alias into the meetings.

Also George Pelham mediated, like before Phinuit, messages of the deceased, above all in writing, in addition, verbally and sometimes even in both forms at the same time.

Hodgson let medium of detectives be supervise, in order to guarantee that Mrs. Piper could not procure itself information, which could then have been spent as paranormale achievement.

It considered itself later the thesis of the Telepathie disproved and well-known for spiritistischen explanation. Probably under the personal impression that a girl, whom he had wanted to marry years ago in Australia and from which he 15 years long nothing had more heard, to it in Boston by Mrs. Piper their death communicated. Hodgson verified this case.

All in all Mrs. Piper produced innumerable highly detailed statements about hundreds of goal persons with the help of several controls.

As a rule it seems to have concerned Anwesenheitstelepathie.

In Hypnose Mrs. Piper could not show paranormalen experiences, but only in Trance, into which she purged spontaneously. Afterwards it did not have memory of the Vorgefallene.

PK phenomena arose with Mrs. Piper not, do not refrain one from an ability examined not more near, which was attributed it: Flowers the smell to take and them more rapidly wither to leave.

Makes sense to me

:)
 
malcolmdl said:


I say that the controls put in place were lessened because I assume that Hodgson did not have PI's on her and her husband's tails for the full period of investigation. Neither do I believe her mail would be checked all the time. What happened was that Hodgson 'ruled out' certain possibilities, and stopped checking for these as time went on.

Any competent magician will tell you that there is nothing more convincing to a subject as when the subject knows one technique for a trick and the magician then uses another technique to receive the desired effect. Magicians fool other magicians all the time. You can't just rule things out and then never check them again.

The investigators believe that they are in control of the sittings and say so. Then we have:

"The following illustrates the care taken of the physical conditions and the way they are spoken of it is an extract from a sitting held by Mr. Dorr at Boston in 1906
(Rector interrupting a "Hodgson" communication.) Friend, you will have to change the conditions a moment.
[At the beginning of the sitting only one of the two windows in the room was open a very little way. A few moments previous to this time H. J. Jr. noticing that the room was a little close had opened the other window, and G. B. D. had nearly closed it again.]
G. B. D. What is wrong with the conditions? Do you want more air or less?
Well, there will have to be a change in the surroundings, there will have to be more strength, what is it, air, yes, air. And a good deal more just now. Hodgson takes a good deal of strength when he comes, but he is all right, he understands the methods of operation very well (The window was now opened wide). That is better. Now the light begins to get clear. All right, friend."

Clearly, the psychic is in control here, not the investigators.

I would be suspicious as to what was going on a that window.

Was the mail always checked -- not just Mrs Piper's {important this}

Where were the daughters during the sittings? (Supposedly at their needlework -- but were they under surveillance all the time?)

There are so many questions I would need answered and so many alternative theories about how this all could have been done that I am surprised that Clancie and Ian can't think of any other ways that Mrs Piper could have come by the information other than by supernatural means.

It was a spectacular piece of cheek on Mrs Piper's part to recruit Hodgson as a 'spirit control'.

Had I been his spirit, the first thing I would have asked is:

"Why the &^*% did you tell me I'd live a long happy life and have children. Why didn't you tell me I was going to die so soon you *darned* fraud. Oh, but you can't be if I'm talking to you now -- oh, this is confusing -- where is Myers? Groan."

Couldn't agree more. Is this not what Randi has been saying for 50 years?
If it weren't for the introduction of a trained magician/conjuror in to the events, how many tricksters would still be getting away with it today? Psi Baba, Geller, Lulova - the list goes on. Each one of these chancers had trained, skeptical scientists eating out of their hands until a 'pesky magician' rained on their parade.

It makes me shudder to think how many charlatans got past science with laughable ease before the likes of Houdini and Randi came along.

Is Piper one of these? We cannot say for certain. We can only suggest that, given the nature of the experiments, there are several ways in which COULD have. Malcolmdl has suggested a mixture of techniques - cold and hot reading, misdirection and (when she got a bit chummier with Hodgson) blatant manipulation.

I'm not saying she did any of those things - I'm just saying that anyone who thinks she couldn't have done them, hasn't read enough of the Randi commentary's dealing with the applications for the prize.
Ian, surely you must agree that the circumstances under which Piper was tested were hardly 'lockdown' by todays standards?
 
Hodgson must have lost his reason, been influenced by the Society, or was completely in the control of the 'quiet and innocent' Mrs Piper when:

"so the group of controls associated with Rector assured Dr. Hodgson that they would take the trance in hand and develop it on better and higher lines."

He is now treating the 'controls' like they were real and should have a say in the testing procedures. Sheesh! The lunatics are in charge of the asylum!
 
Just by chance, when looking for stuff on Mrs Piper, I came across this:

HISTORICAL ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ILLINOIS AND
HISTORY OF SANGAMON COUNTY Volume II - Biographical
Chicago: Munsell Publishing Company, Publishers 1912

at:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilsangam/bio-1912-idx.htm

If this kind of work was published elsewhere, what a great source of information to add to the psychic's arsenal for information fishing.
 
Possibility of servants' gossip being one source for Mrs Piper's information:

from Skeptical Inquirer, Jan-Feb, 2004, by Herman H. Spitz

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2843/1_28/111897969/p1/article.jhtml

The White Crow

Any discussion of James's spiritualistic bent must begin with Mrs. Piper. James (1890) wrote that he first met her in the Autumn of 1885, and Mrs. Piper's description of how they met is particularly illuminating. "My maid of all work told a friend who was a servant in the household of Professor William James, of Harvard, that I went into 'queer sleeps,' in which I said many 'strange things.' Professor James recognized that I was what is called a psychic, and took steps to make my acquaintance" (Piper 1902, 143). If this was true there would have been an obvious conduit from the James household to Mrs. Piper, and her trance state revelations about the James family, which so impressed James, would have had a more mundane source than the spirit world. Mrs. Piper's daughter, Alta Piper, told a somewhat different story. Her grandparents had a maid whose sister worked in a Boston home frequently visited by James's mother-in-law, Mrs. Gibbens (Alta Piper spelled it Gibbins). Hearing, through this channel, marvelous tales about Mrs. Piper, Mrs. Gibbens requested and received a sitting that so impressed her that she arranged a sitting for her daughter, James's wife, "the results of which appeared equally, if not more, surprising than her own" (A. Piper 1929, 22).

James's (1890) version of how he met Mrs. Piper generally supports her daughter's description, although he made no mention of the role played by the housekeepers. When he was told of Mrs. Piper's powers he went with his wife, "to get a direct personal impression" (652). Whatever the specific connection between the servants, "It is thus possible that Mrs. Piper's knowledge of the James family was acquired from the gossip of servants and that the whole mystery rests on the failure of the people upstairs to realize that servants [downstairs] also have ears" (Burkhardt and Bowers 1986, 397).
 
Interesting Ian said

NoZed Avenger

You and others are not required to prove Mrs Piper was a fraud. You just have to give some plausible means whereby Mrs Piper could have obtained the information. My understanding is that cold reading is extremely implausible. So how could Mrs Piper have gotten this information? Do you understand you have to supply some sort of answer here??

Plausible means?

Gossip -- husband, daughters, servants, friends in the 'psychic circles' of the times, overheard conversations of servants who were 'invisible' to the upper/middle classes of this time. (People discuss the strangest, most personal things in front of bartenders even nowadays -- I can attest to this)

Paid Informants. (Mrs Piper earned a living at this game -- plenty to go around, I think) Servants could easily be employed for "a small consideration, Ma'am".

Newspapers -- "hatches, matches and dispatchies". Local newspapers also report on things like deaths from accidents.

Register of Births, Deaths and Marriages.

Local Biographical Encyclopedias that contained a wealth of information.

The "Who's Who", if these existed then. Or maybe the "Woos Woo":)

Compromised post -- getting a hold of mail send to and by folk like James, Lodge, and Hodgson before they got it, opening and resealing, then having it delivered as unopened. 'Reading through the envelope' is easy, too. Here is a method that would 'reveal' some of the supposedly annonymous sitters. I assume most were contacted and made appointments by letter. There was usually only one or two new sitters per day. So, if Mrs Piper knows that Sir Oliver Lodge has made an appointment for Mr X on Thursday, 14 Dec. 1894, she knows who Mr X is and has time to research. The postboy or even postmaster could be involved. Remember that in the past telephone exchange girls were often guilty of 'listening in'.

Overhearing via the plumbing, by holding a glass to wall or floor or by 'cowans and eavesdroppers' outside windows -- not as silly as at first these methods might seem.

The 'psychic blue book system'.

Her own Private Investigators.

Sneaking about in the homes she was in, by her or a confederate. Even locked doors and cabinets can be opened, after all.

Collusion with investigators, witting or unwitting. They, too, made money from the Piper 'franchise.' People were paid, books were published, lectures given, etc. Hodgson was sent to America -- not a bad little number for him IMO.

Mrs Piper did fish for info -- all the investigators admit this. So, a mixture of cold/hot reading gives varied performances which is just what we would expect. She is 'fluent' when she has the info she needs, and fishes when stumped.

A mixture of all or some of the above.

I'm sure there are other explanations that don't involve the paranormal.

On the pre-reading of the mail, the following is most suspicious:

As an instance of reading a letter, which had indeed just passed through my mind, but which was not read in any normal manner by the medium, I take the following case.
(A chain was handed to Phinuit by me, the package having been delivered by hand to me late the previous evening. I had just opened the package, glanced at the contents, and hastily read a letter inside, then wrapped all up again and stored them. The chain had been sent by Mrs. John Watson from Sefton Drive; it had belonged to "Ian Maclaren's" father.)
"This belongs to an old gentlemen that passed out of the body - a nice old man. I see something funny here, something the matter with heart, paralytic something. Give me the wrappers, all of them. - [i.e., The paper it came in; a letter among them. Medium held them to top of her head, gradually flicking away the blank ones. She did not inspect them. She was all the while holding with her other hand another stranger, a Mr. Lund, who knew nothing whatever about the letter or the chain.] "Who's dear Lodge? Who's Poole, Toodle, Poodle? Whatever does that mean?"
O. J. L.: "I haven't the least idea."
"Is there J. N. W. here? Poole. Then there's Sefton. S-e-f-t-o-n, Pool, hair. Yours truly, J. N. W. That's it; I send hair. Poole J. N. W. Do you understand that?
O. J. L.: "No, only partially."
[Note by O. J. L - I found afterwards that the letter began "Dear Dr. Lodge," contained the words "Sefton Drive," and "Cook" so written as to look like Poole. It also said "I send you some hair." and finished - yours sincerely J. B. W."; the "B" being not unlike an "N." The name of the sender was not mentioned in the letter, but at a subsequent sitting it was correctly stated by Phinuit in connexion with the chain.] WHY WAS THE SENDER ONLY NAMED AT A SUBSEQUENT SITTING -- AFTER MRS PIPER RESEARCHED WHO J.B.W ???
This reading of letters in an abnormal way is very curious, and is a very old type of phenomenon. Kant and Hegel were both familiar with it: only it was then called "reading with the pit of the stomach." Now it seems usually done with the top of the head.
I had a few other cases-less distinct than the above - and I again refer here to the little experiment made by Mrs. Verrall as reported on page 98, as well as to Page 104.

So, to quote Ian and Clancie -- "over to you!"
 
CFLarsen said:


I hope it wasn't anything serious! :)

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

It seems he died 'after sport' -- probably had a bad heart that was undetected by Phinuit.

Or, maybe there was a little something in his tea or coffee that made him loose his reason and finally killed him.

Pure speculation, of course:)
 
One old trick used by mediums to read what was inside an envelope without opening it was to keep a rag or wad soaked in a volatile substance which could be surrepticiously applied to the envelope rendering it temporarily translucent for a minute or so allowing you to make out some of the writing inside.
[Note by O. J. L - I found afterwards that the letter began "Dear Dr. Lodge," contained the words "Sefton Drive," and "Cook" so written as to look like Poole. It also said "I send you some hair." and finished - yours sincerely J. B. W."; the "B" being not unlike an "N." The name of the sender was not mentioned in the letter, but at a subsequent sitting it was correctly stated by Phinuit in connexion with the chain.] WHY WAS THE SENDER ONLY NAMED AT A SUBSEQUENT SITTING -- AFTER MRS PIPER RESEARCHED WHO J.B.W ???
The above is very telling as the way most letters are folded you would be most likely able to see the very begining as well as the very end, since the folds would make it difficult to see any part of the body of the letter.
 
One old trick used by mediums to read what was inside an envelope without opening it was to keep a rag or wad soaked in a volatile substance which could be surrepticiously applied to the envelope rendering it temporarily translucent for a minute or so allowing you to make out some of the writing inside.

Absolutely! Technique is still used today by 'mind-reading' acts.
 
One of the reasons I am up on the methods medium/psychic use is because being a hispanic and that for cultural and traditional reasons, hispanics have been prey for the 'brujos' and their kin for a long time, I felt I needed to get involved. I have seen too many people victimized by these vermin who take all from those who have little to spare. In my 54 years and I have fought them whenever possible in my own way thru education and demonstrations whenever and where ever the opportunity presents itself. One thing I have realized is that there is really very little new to these tricksters. Most tricks are just repeats or variations of old tricks. If you familiarize yourself with the techniques used, by reading and learning from those who came before; you will be more likely to detect their deceit.
 
Posted by magicflute

One old trick used by mediums to read what was inside an envelope without opening it was to keep a rag or wad soaked in a volatile substance which could be surrepticiously applied to the envelope rendering it temporarily translucent for a minute or so allowing you to make out some of the writing inside.

That seems like a lot of work. A much easier way (and harder to notice) is the old trick of being out of sync with the envelopes you're opening. In other words, the first envelope you open has the information that you are going to pretend came from the second envelope and so on.
Posted by magicflute

I have seen too many people victimized by these vermin who take all from those who have little to spare. In my 54 years and I have fought them whenever possible in my own way thru education and demonstrations whenever and where ever the opportunity presents itself.

Well, I commend you for fighting fraud where you find it and for educating people how to detect it for themselves.

I just disagree if you feel that, because we know that -some- mediums are fraudulent, therefore we know that -all- of them are.
 
Clancie said:

A much easier way (and harder to notice) is the old trick of being out of sync with the envelopes you're opening. In other words, the first envelope you open has the information that you are going to pretend came from the second envelope and so on.

A completely different trick, irrelevant to the scenario in question.
 
Clancie, I can see why you are so easily deceived. You look but do not see. You read, but you do not understand. The reason for offering that particular solution is because it best fits the actions described. There was only ONE envelop, and what was divined was at the begining and the end of the letter. This fits the pattern of using a volatile substance. It is not alot of trouble particularly by a woman at that time that were fond of carrying kerchief in their hands at all times, this would make things easy to conceal. The are many ways of reading a single unopen envelope, just get a hold of some of the books I recommended in previous posts and you will be better informed.
I just disagree if you feel that, because we know that -some- mediums are fraudulent, therefore we know that -all- of them are.
As soon as we find one that can be proven as genuine, I will recommend her to everyone.
 

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