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Most Overrated Artists...

I see nothing moving about but don't mind the nice stuff. Mona Lisa or whatever. But what is basically fingerpainting or Piss Christ, I don't get it. And I don't want to get it. Van Gogh's stuff looks pretty crappy to me. But I've always wondered if I'm missing something. Is there something special about the paint strokes or use of some artsy fartsy techniques that make a sloppy looking Van Gogh a masterpiece?
 
I see nothing moving about but don't mind the nice stuff. Mona Lisa or whatever. But what is basically fingerpainting or Piss Christ, I don't get it. And I don't want to get it. Van Gogh's stuff looks pretty crappy to me. But I've always wondered if I'm missing something. Is there something special about the paint strokes or use of some artsy fartsy techniques that make a sloppy looking Van Gogh a masterpiece?
Yes.
 
That's what I'm saying. Art is art; love it, hate it, be indifferent, just don't think it's worth $137,000,000.00. Try unloading that piece now there's a global financial crisis going on, and see how much it's "worth".

As far as the monetary value goes, I've always thought that art as an investment relies entirely on the Greater Fool Theory.
 
Tracy Emin.

Oh god. Words cannot express how much I loathe this talentless hack. Crawl back under the rock you came from, you vile, waste of space artist that makes me sick to my stomach that people like you can get rich from something they have absolutely no ability in.

I think that applies to most, if not all, of the current Young British Artists mob.

I blame Duchamp, myself.
 
But Babe Ruth is independently famous and talented without that baseball. The baseball is valuable because it was hit by a famous, talented guy. The guy was famous because he could play a game well.

In the case of art, however, that argument becomes circular. An artist derives his fame from pictures, so how can the pictures derive their value from the fame of the artist? There needs to be something about the painting itself that gives it value independently from the artist (unless the artist is someone like Hitler, in which case the paintings would derive their value similar to your Babe Ruth example because Hitler is famous for things independent of his artwork). I would think that should be the quality of the work.

I agree that the art market is made of a lot of bull, but I don't agree that it's entirely bull or that all markets are bull.

My argument is that the value of an artist isn't tied to a single painting taken by itself knocking you over with it's greatness.

Artists create a body of work, and in our information culture, we can really view it as a body as well as the effects it had on the world.

Look, for instance at a painting like Demoiselles D'avignon

Now I personally am visually blown away by it, but even if you aren't it is a historical breakpoint of real meaning. It is one of the first introductions of the ideas in African art into the European fine art world, a broadened perspective that has had huge consequences for our entire visual world.

Looking back at earlier paintings you can see the progression and experimentation that allowed for that moment. A body of work tells a story.
 
Compare that with my pet example of Jackson Pollock. Even the titles of many of Pollock's paintings give us no clue as to what they are suppose to be about. From wikipedia:



He encourages me to "look passively" and not bring a preconceived idea to the painting. He wants me to look at a picture as just a pure painting. He doesn't even give me a title to work with, just a number. Maybe we could say that Pollock wanted his paintings to bring something out of me rather than me taking something out of it? At this point, though, it feels like we're just reading tea leaves. He splashed a bunch of chaos onto a canvas and is now basically telling us, "you figure it out." Perhaps some people like that--being able to read any meaning they want into a painting. But, at that point, his paintings are really no different than an ink blot test. He hasn't really put anything of himself into the painting.

A couple issues with Pollock, since he always comes up in this type of discussion.

1) Like many painters, his works aren't images but objects. (does that make sense?) looking at an image in a book or online does not do them justice. His best works are quite large, physically textured and pack a visceral impact. To me, looking at an image online is like looking at a picture of soup and judging how well it tastes.

2) I think he's a little harder to access, not because there is nothing there, and not because the meaning is dense or esoteric, but because it is so simple. We've been trained that meaningful art is a clever way of encoding metaphors, but that isn't a useful approach for a lot of work.

I'm not saying that every artist who's well known and rewarded has been good. Or even that everyone should be able to appreciate Pollock's stuff. Just like not everyone likes beets or calamari or sports.

But I do think there is real value in his paintings.
If you really want to try to see what's interesting about Pollock, I recommend these steps.

1) Again- Really see them in person.

2) Don't look for metaphors. The red isn't about anger or infidelity or childhood. It's paint that a guy flung around in the air. It's colors and shapes on a canvas. You can appreciate a piece of clothing with interesting colors or textures without looking for great meaning. One window into Pollock is to think of his work as a more complex example of that.

3) Go home and play with paint. Get a feel for how it moves. If you can, find a space where you can go crazy with it. Action painting is about the forensic evidence left by a physical process. We're seeing what was left over from doing something, like the footprints on a stage after a dance troupe has left. Think about the dance.

3) Jazz. In case you haven't guessed, music plays an important role, listen to the music that Pollock did. Bring your ipod or whatever into the gallery.

Finally, if you still don't enjoy his stuff... that fine. I think a lot of people have a notion that "The art world" thinks they're stupid if they don't appreciate what the art world celebrates. They may feel judged and reply with a "No, you're stupid!"

But in the end, not finding joy in a particular artist is just like not finding joy in a particular band or food. It could be that you might enjoy it with the right background info and approach, but there's nothing wrong with you if you don't instinctively have those or even if you still don't like something after a serious effort.

People pay huge money for truffle fungus too, or concerts for musicians I think are terrible. I think many people might be able to relax and enjoy paintings much more if they viewed them the way we view music and food and the other arts that we partake in daily instead of something that needs to be on some higher plane.
 
I love Pollock. I really like how the paintings look; they are aesthetically very pleasing to me and I even got a kick from the "paint like Pollock" webpage linked above. However, I don't know if I would rate him as a great artist. I think there is far more skill involved in painting something and making it look totally realistic, but I wouldn't want to hang such a picture on my wall.

So, I would say all "modern" artists are overrated and all "can make things look very lifelike" artists are underrated.
 
I have to agree. If you're an artist that has to go to your exhibitions and stand by your paintings explaining what they mean, you're defeating the purpose of the art which, to me, seems to be to portray a certain idea. If the painting or sculpture can't do that without you explaining it, you've failed.
Thats such an asinine definition. Art can portray multiple ideas. I think the most potent example of this is Shakespeare. Some of his plays can be interpreted in multiple manners that are completely and utterly contradictory. Does that mean Shakespeare failed as an artist?
 
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Thats such an asinine definition. Art can portray multiple ideas. I think the most potent example of this is Shakespeare. Some of his plays can be interpreted in multiple manners that are completely and utterly contradictory. Does that mean Shakespeare failed as an artist?

You and I can both read Macbeth and have different interpretations of certain scenes and lines. However, without having someone explain to us all of the finer details, we could walk away with the same general idea about the plot and general purpose behind the work.

Like literature, I believe paintings and sculptures can have different layers to them that might not always strike you on the first glance. That said, I have found myself looking at paintings of basically nothing with a long explanation from the artist trying to tell me its more than nothing. Maybe it is, maybe I don't have any taste, but I can't help but feel I'm being strung along in such instances.

I suppose what it boils down to is that I don't believe art can just be anything. I do think of it as a discipline and can't bring myself to call any Tom, Dick, and Jane who splashes some paint on a canvas and calls it "Mother" an artist.
 
The comments from Pollock are similar to what some of the minimalists were saying...."The viewer should impress his own image on the canvas." was one I recall.
I can do that quite well with clouds; don't we call that paredolia? I certainly don't have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for same.

We once went to an exhibition of political art at the university art museum here. There were several interesting pieces; Andy Warhol's representation of Nixon as the Wicked Witch Of The West, for instance. Another I liked was artist/songwriter Terry Allen's sculpture of "The Great American Passtime." It was a bust with the face portion detatched (as if by violence) and a baseball bat fetched up against the back of the head.

Clever...

However, there were a number of pieces in this political show that were utterly unfathomable unless you read the little description card. What use is "political" art if it has to be explained to you?
 
My argument is that the value of an artist isn't tied to a single painting taken by itself knocking you over with it's greatness.

Artists create a body of work, and in our information culture, we can really view it as a body as well as the effects it had on the world.

Look, for instance at a painting like Demoiselles D'avignon

Now I personally am visually blown away by it, but even if you aren't it is a historical breakpoint of real meaning. It is one of the first introductions of the ideas in African art into the European fine art world, a broadened perspective that has had huge consequences for our entire visual world.

Looking back at earlier paintings you can see the progression and experimentation that allowed for that moment. A body of work tells a story.

I can respect that, but my problem is that I think all art should portray some kind of an idea that should be at least a little bit apparent to the viewer without a need for lengthy explanations. Seeing the evolution of the artist is very interesting and I agree that there's much to be gained by looking at the entire body of work.

I'll try your suggestions when looking at Pollock paintings the next time I'm around one, but I'm not hopeful. Looking at a painting as just a painting seems self-defeating to me because I believe there should be some kind of emergent property to art. If I look at a painting as just some colored paste on a canvas, it's as if I'm just viewing it as the sum of its parts. To me, the measure of art is making something more than the sum of its parts and using that feature to convey a message or idea.
 
sorry Koons isn't my favorit artist.

And I adore Duchamp. But I adore the ARTIST! I wouldn't want to own a urinal... but what you don't GET is that Duchamp was agreeing with most of you when he tried to put a urinal in an art show. That was his POINT! And on a historic level, that urinal has meaning (if not in itself artistic value).

His "Nude Descending a Staircase" is lovely. And it's a reflection of how our world vision was changing. That I would have on my wall. He was capable of great work, but really worked not for money...but for his own pleasure. He'd really rather play a game of chess.
Duchamp_Nude.jpg




the above painting would never have been painted without the changed world view presented by the Muybridge photographs! Art is reflective of how we know and view the world.

duchamptwo.jpg

A lot of modern art is crap. A lot of Victorian era art is crap... but the crap is allowed to fall by they wayside usually. Everyone loves Impressionists (most popular art now), but at the time they were villified.

Van Gogh... I would suggest seeing his work at the museum of his name in Amsterdam. You see the development of his art. His early stuff HURTS to look at it's so awful. Then you see the transformation. The early Japanese poster paintings (most people don't get that modern art was "born" from the influence of Asian art) that lead to his more well known phase of nature and color. Plus he SLATHERED color on. His best works are more sculpture than painting. A Van Gogh print shows nothing of the beauty of a real Van Gogh at his peak.

A good museum that knows how to present modern art is important. Most don't know how to display it at all. You need BIG rooms and uncluttered space and to cull out a LOT of the crap and put out the good.

If you want to look at modern art a whole new way (it doesn't mean you will like it any better) this book is the Bible of modern art. It's tied in to physics and math and Darwin and Einstien....I'm not even going to get into WWI (Dada - which most people laugh at, was a reaction to a world gone mad during WWI)

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Physics-P...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229359228&sr=1-1

Anyway, it's a fun read, for anyone that likes science - or art - or doesn't.

Oh and as for art prices! Don't get me started.

My one word of advice NEVER EVER BUY ANYTHING BY DALI!

No Dali prints (limited edition type things) NOTHING except a cheap print that you might like to put on your wall. Everyone loves Dali. No problem with his work (much of which he did NOT produce) but he was more a commodity than an artist. He signed canvases and empty print paper so he could fill his pockets as needed. He lost the ability to paint in the 1960's and much of his later paintings (and perhaps earlier ones) were done by others. Art is also well loved by the drug world. Paintings are passed around as collateral. Which is very bad for paintings which are delicate and require special conditions and handling. A lot of the price of art is that it's seen as something that won't lose value over time. It does!
 
I see nothing moving about but don't mind the nice stuff. Mona Lisa or whatever. But what is basically fingerpainting or Piss Christ, I don't get it. And I don't want to get it. Van Gogh's stuff looks pretty crappy to me. But I've always wondered if I'm missing something. Is there something special about the paint strokes or use of some artsy fartsy techniques that make a sloppy looking Van Gogh a masterpiece?
Certain things by certain artists that many people consider sloppy or weird are directly connectable to physical or mental disease (or a combination of the two).
 
"Which artists are the most overrated?"

Based on what?

An objective scale?

A subjective scale?

The latter is rather pointless. Some like apples, other like oranges. The former is much more interesting.

Out of curiosity, what is the Pollock in the OP trying to sell?
 
Perhaps the epitome of bad "art" taken to absurd levels are tattoos. Why people would permanently disfigure their forms with images they wouldn't tack up on their wall is a head scratch. Excluding military insignia/unit tattoos, it appears that the current cultural phenomenon of skin "art" is more about striving for external distinction where nature failed to provide from within.
 
Perhaps the epitome of bad "art" taken to absurd levels are tattoos. Why people would permanently disfigure their forms with images they wouldn't tack up on their wall is a head scratch. Excluding military insignia/unit tattoos, it appears that the current cultural phenomenon of skin "art" is more about striving for external distinction where nature failed to provide from within.
You can tattoo lipstick on a pig....
 
The comments from Pollock are similar to what some of the minimalists were saying...."The viewer should impress his own image on the canvas." was one I recall.
I can do that quite well with clouds; don't we call that paredolia? I certainly don't have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for same.

Yes, it's lame and it's lazy.

I do like to see modern art, much of it can be interesting, stimulating, unexpected, amusing. I like a good 'installation'. But you're not going to impress me much with your inability to express yourself.
 

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